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Date:      Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:55:27 -0800 (PST)
From:      "Michael V. Harding" <mvh@netcom.com>
To:        jdn@acp.qiv.com
Cc:        witr@rwwa.com, stable@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: 'Code Freeze'
Message-ID:  <199803190555.VAA17269@netcom1.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318221246.1621A-100000@acp.qiv.com> (message from Jay Nelson on Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:03:45 -0600 (CST))
References:   <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318221246.1621A-100000@acp.qiv.com>

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What I really want is to be able to help people 'bootstrap' and bring
them into the FreeBSD community.  The easiest way to do that is to
deliver a rock solid CD, which is my general experience with the OS.
Someone who gets the CD, and then needs to 'build the world from
source' might get a little discouraged.  And unfortunately, like
dating, many don't get past their first experience.

I've just come up this curve myself - I bought a SCSI CD to run
FreeBSD in the first place.  If I hadn't, I might be running Linux
now.  I'm glad I did buy that CD, even if it's mainly superfluous now.

Anyways, there will be those who don't have space to build world,
which takes nearly 300 meg by my reckoning, or who don't have
connectivity, or who are craven newbies or fragile beginners, and who
need what help they can get.  For them, and for those of us who would
like to say 'use release so and so' rather than the current snapshot
of stable, please, please, please do an initial release of CDs which
can get a week or two of testing before going to distribution.

Everybody on stable is convinced of the worth of FreeBSD - the CD is
how you hook the newbies, and people do fixate on little things.  When
I tried to upgrade to 2.2.6 in place using the CD, I lost everything
on my hard disk - definitly discouraging, even though I had backups.
I only buy the CDs now to help pay Jordan and all.

Anyways, with CD burners as cheap as they are - how about a test run???

Mike Harding

   Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:03:45 -0600 (CST)
   From: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>
   cc: "Michael V. Harding" <mvh@netcom.com>, stable@freebsd.org
   Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
   X-UIDL: 66598131af9039d2f2084bc79bb2fefb

   On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Robert Withrow wrote:

   >
   >mvh@netcom.com said:
   >:-  The result to a long time CD  subscriber like myself is that I have
   >:- _never_ received a FreeBSD CD that is  useful to me by itself.
   >
   >Say Haleluja.
   >
   >(And don't go telling me I can return it for a credit.  That isn't the
   >point!)
   >
   >My advice, which I'm sure everyone will ignore, is for Jordan and
   >friends to 'fess up and admit that the current state of "stable" isn't
   >stable enough for cutting a CD release, re-freeze now and only allow
   >bug fixes for the next 30-45 days (including fixes for the slice
   >stuff) and *then* cut the release.  I'm pretty sure everyone *buying*
   >the CD's would rather a delay than [another] less-than-completely-stable
   >release.

   Let me add my paltry two bits in concurrance. From what I've seen.
   2.1.7 is _stable_ though ignored. 2.2.X seems to be current and 3.0, 
   or whatever is beyond, seems to be a work in progress. Truth is, 2.1.7
   does everything I need done. If I had to make a choice of versions to
   put into a demanding environment for which I had to take
   responsibility, it would be 2.1.7. 

   Don't get me wrong -- 2.2.X has also been reliable from an operational
   standpoint, but I've had to chase fixes far more than I like.
   It's the login.conf and slice type of changes that change the world on
   us.

   Many of us use FreeBSD for real work and consider it as good as or
   better than many commercial Unices -- so our expectations are higher
   and, perhaps, more demanding. (I went through the AIX 4.2.X storm and
   nothing in FreeBSD has nailed me that hard :-) We don't see it as a
   toy or an experimental test bed.

   What Micheal is suggesting is something that would satisfy everyone.
   Why rush new changes into an impending release? -SABLE goes on for
   those who want to have the latest, and -CURRENT goes on for those
   who bleed, but a _stable_ CD is something the rest of us can install
   and walk away from without midnight pages.

   I am truly grateful for the effort everyone associated with FreeBSD
   has invested to make available to me an OS as good as this, and to
   Walnut Creek for making the CDs available. I am subscribed and would
   be happy to pay for 2.2.6 and 7 and 8 and 9, etc., but login.conf and
   slice changes seems to make more for 2.3.x than 2.2.x. (ELF, by the
   way seems more like 6.0.x -- I hope :-)

   My point -- and I think, Micheal's, is that a truly stable CD would
   raise FreeBSD far above the run of the mill Unices -- commercial or
   otherwise.

   -- Jay

   >I've been trying to propogate a CD release within my company for the last
   >1.5 years, and so far every release requires patches and hacks to get it
   >to work correctly.  I understand that it is free software, but it
   >seems to me, as it seems to the above author, that if the release were
   >just cut 1 month earlier or later it would be a much better story.
   >
   >---------------------------------------------------------------------
   >Robert Withrow, R.W. Withrow Associates, Swampscott MA, witr@rwwa.COM
   >
   >
   >
   >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
   >with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message
   >

   -- Jay




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