From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed May 16 10:06:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F65ED6A71 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 10:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin.bowling@kev009.com) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0F281763 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 10:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevin.bowling@kev009.com) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 144-v6so300563iti.5 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 03:06:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZLO9izn6M3mPoPgeWaZt057y15bh4yAsVZX4o3Jq6UM=; b=ViJG8tCNCO1CksGzUdEsMUTWIJv4Gc5KYPH1uuocA0tCu0qLU13MSYHmlN0MdOLJVK GPGb2292e1z4BrfxuiFwaOU1osNF5wErMR2l0u3ospqvDeDlXQTF2SAMQvWIr4NnSgkQ PzxR6WE/jQJLIGuuROG39Kzx5SKW3n5KZvatA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZLO9izn6M3mPoPgeWaZt057y15bh4yAsVZX4o3Jq6UM=; b=GtTl0KPf0E2bCF1t4+nGufomddQ1NDXRvlA8u95XjtXbOiL4Nb91li8xM4ho6GYxZK P8jAeCnXWSBw7lK/GaYEdfG4e9vYCiOTsgSqhiAFuetWMNyxCS4TwXy7k1qCB5ErQd9F hOYAFsrSy40hFDPBnCtmxL1ceognPgxyA+BSHYDD8/5pje+bYSmY7np2ORsRzNIEQZN5 2buVltAMRqCHiURKP1ofPc2HGppkUFAy52AK1Zn8RckXxDSjUpXq45NwPeIG0uf2zaqk Rft2FZQRnUPsYe86bLhHi0rNAE6LEF43jucrjCaM2VWKYXGz/okfgr8uGzqJJhTcF9dl kxLA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwfsF1QObWw7naocmsuMI7TZLYBvs62zyKD+kpM4kQPMLEtPgZhi TUeTJFAImjflLW6YhE90RyVrmpMpQ+w0GezWD/ZPcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZphtaYk9SB5SsLzpVa00A3g8FApEhDw2aEYg0TJQ5rHK11m5RgrjtLjplB//cMoSuHdSzdIEsx7IqzAqSHVrXw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8361:: with SMTP id f94-v6mr191622iod.17.1526465183486; Wed, 16 May 2018 03:06:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:c019:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 16 May 2018 03:06:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20170222120828.zkrfh56swen7r44o@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> <3635692.Vys3mgEcQY@workstation.reztek> <237b2552-c97c-fd41-5509-ed611f0103dd@freebsd.org> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 03:06:22 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: your mail To: blubee blubeeme Cc: Johannes Lundberg , x11-list freebsd , Niclas Zeising Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 10:06:25 -0000 >> Johannes you do great work but you missed my point. > > There's absolutely no reason for anyone to invest any resources into > developing a proper graphics stack for FreeBSD if the FreeBSD devs are only > going to rely on Jerry-rigged stuff from Linux. > > The mailing list is bombarded by regressions and issues with the Linuxkpi > stuff. For lightweight stuff sure, use the Linuxkpi if u have to but for a > major component of the platform, that's just pathetic. > > There are talented devs out there who can get the work done, they just need > to be financing, then organized. That's a pretty blatant put up or shut up comment. Do you have tens of millions of dollars to fund this? If yes, I know exactly who to tap from community to do the development and I'd be happy to organize it. One thing to realize about driver development, and most complex systems programming, is that the cost of going from a neat hack to something commercially viable is exponential. For example, blitting to a framebuffer or pushing a packet out of a NIC is a one day affair. Driving those device in a competitive, performance oriented, stable and worth using in commercial deployments is a years long affair. I can tell you that each of the most used storage, network, and many software subsystems are at minimum millions of dollars a piece of professional development. A graphics stack is more complex than most of these. > Seeing as most other platforms got their networking stack from BSD, it's a > sad state when FreeBSD has to use Linuxkpi to get networking drivers. > > If stating that the FreeBSD graphics stack is in a sad position is > "shitting on people" then I'm guilty of that. > > I just know that we can and should do better. For network drivers I do actually agree with you. I see the companies using LKPI in the Ethernet path as pretty pathetic because it's objectively a tractable amount of work, especially now with iflib. I've steered many thousand NIC purchases away from LKPI drivers for various reasons including this. You can vote with your wallet by using Chelsio and Intel. Regards, Kevin