From nobody Mon Nov 17 20:30:52 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4d9KBs6kCWz6GvF7 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2025 20:31:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from minsoochoo0122@proton.me) Received: from mail-10697.protonmail.ch (mail-10697.protonmail.ch [79.135.106.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "protonmail.com", Issuer "R13" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4d9KBs4FDrz3J3Z for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2025 20:31:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from minsoochoo0122@proton.me) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1763411458; x=1763670658; bh=GfbBDMsKzYCVf0qftOIBO7LzIFzl1hPLdXugWpI4nx4=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=D5tl1hNKJTDmkPnnTAMXloaae62pb2lHMBkn3mYS43OGaBeRFxHvDDaLmUqb+COBB PfhD1U6f6hxvmI6CcB6UPc3sjmWxHtgCNTJNm7tJ12LoKHwBAlT/z4EkQpezrg10Iz DJy4mAt6OAw73Eynmiby6vpDGWtr2dYmZo3FvuRBulKhNGcOQhAo2eIy17krm0P8Rt wmrksDT003giDb4/Geet5wdx3O2UG8Oy4FXY+N5pZywBl9+kD4gbD7309fwSTe/wQB aAC1JZvP1eD6DzMjKP/OkyZYajPdeZOx35MRi5DzVKIlHPz3he2J4O1pU9/2WZm5QO O/hbJMvojfBXQ== Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 20:30:52 +0000 To: Mark Millard From: Minsoo Choo Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: What's the plan for powerpc64 in FreeBSD 16 [little endian too is listed for removal] Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 45891198:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 4f8fc4df4ded311dda216e3b77cba906edb1e0f7 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:62371, ipnet:79.135.106.0/24, country:CH] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4d9KBs4FDrz3J3Z On Monday, November 17th, 2025 at 2:54 PM, Mark Millard = wrote: > Warner Losh wrote on >=20 > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 16:57:57 UTC : >=20 > > Greetings, > >=20 > > As we're getting close to the release date for FreeBSD 15.0, it's time = to > > take stock of another architectures. This time, I'd like your feedback = on > > the following plans. > >=20 > > We'd like to retire powerpc64 and powerpc64le just before the FreeBSD > > stable/16 branch. > >=20 > > This would give powerpc64 another two years of support in main, followe= d by > > sustaining support on stable/14 and stable/15 until the end of those > > branches. > >=20 > > We've come to this point because the port is dwindling and we have a co= st > > associated with keeping it around. The number of developers has fallen = off > > so only a couple remain. Issues in powerpc are taking longer and longer= to > > discover and resolve. The hardware has been a huge source of frustratio= n > > for clusteradmin and we've no alternative for developers. There's only = a > > tiny user base. We have trouble building packages for it. Also, powerpc= has > > a number of interesting features of the architecture that make it the o= dd > > arch out. > >=20 > > It's also big endian. While that may seem like a reason to keep it arou= nd, > > if we really can't support it and we're not actively testing functional= ity > > of the system, then keeping this around actually doesn't help keep us > > honest. It just gives us a burden we must bear. > >=20 > > In my opinion, powerpc64 appears to have already fallen below critical > > mass, despite being a sentimental favorite for a number of FreeBSD > > developers. As such, I'd like us to consider planning to retire it befo= re > > we branch 16. > >=20 > > My questions today: Are you using this port? How many people are using = it? > > And what's the installed base? It appears to be somewhat less than that= of > > either i386 or armv7 based on user surveys and popularity at conference= s. > > Also, any other comments you might have. >=20 >=20 > A lot of the responses you are getting seem to make no mention of > little endian also being dropped: you also listed powerpc64le (not > just the Big Endian powerpc64 support). >=20 > I here remind folks that all powerpc64* is being proposed for > removal from the active part of the git repository. (The history > stays available.) >=20 > [I'm one of the folks that used to use old hardware that FreeBSD > only supports in Big Endian mode: old PowerMacs. But they died > years ago and I stopped having any type of powerpc* context > available. I never had access to a modern enough context for > FreeBSD to support little endian use.] >=20 > So: I've no reason to object to all powerpc64* support being > moved. >=20 > The proposal certainly gives folks time to transition to 15.* > or other options for such hardware. >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com Thanks Mark for reminding me. Although I'm strongly leaning towards removing powerpc64be from the source = tree, I'm somewhat neutral towards powerpc64le. powerpc64le is actively sup= ported on major Linux distros like RHEL and SUSE, but I don't know if they = are actively used on FreeBSD. While big-endian powerpc isn't active anymore= in the industry, little-endian powerpc is still popular in some enterprise= market (POWER 11 was released just a few months ago). I don't know any sta= tistics for powerpc64le, but if the cost of maintaining is greater than the= benefit, I'm happy with removing it as well. While I support immediate removal of powerpc64be in 16-current, I think pow= erpc64le should be removed from in 16-current only if we really need to oth= erwise let's wait for 17-current and see how FreeBSD works on powerpc64le.