Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:16:33 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton <freebsd@nbritton.org> To: Chris Zumbrunn <chris@czv.com> Cc: Ceri Davies <ceri@submonkey.net> Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] Message-ID: <41F11CD1.9000507@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <55F14096-6B8E-11D9-8A1E-000A95C969C6@czv.com> References: <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><AC17F3AB-5EFE-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050108144127.GA75006@sumuk.de><8B30EFDE-6195-11D9-A996-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><d9175cad05010914171ee95c7e@mail.gmail.com><20050110180345.GC49329@submonkey.net><F7F917E2-63BA-11D9-B8D2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><41E50DE3.5050105@nbritton.org> <20050112155215.GU49329@submonkey.net><41E55A4D.4090507@nbritton.org> <20050112195203.GW49329@submonkey.net> <41E5858E.10600@nbritton.org> <55F14096-6B8E-11D9-8A1E-000A95C969C6@czv.com>
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Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Ceri Davies wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:11:41AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: >>> >>>> Ceri Davies wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 05:45:39AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 10, 2005, at 7:03 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 04:17:01PM -0600, Eric Kjeldergaard wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Something we do a lot at my workplace (web development firm, >>>>>>>>> mostly) >>>>>>>>> is to have underlines on rollovers and (on some sites unselected, >>>>>>>>> depending of course on user preference). I would prefer to >>>>>>>>> not see >>>>>>>>> the blue underlined if we could avoid it. Of course with the >>>>>>>>> modern >>>>>>>>> css technology, it's not an issue because any user that wants >>>>>>>>> blue >>>>>>>>> underlined links (vision impairment, personal preference, etc) >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> override the link colour via his/her client. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am sure that people with vision impairment would love to mess >>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>> trying to edit a custom stylesheet because you don't like blue >>>>>>>> anchors. >>>>>>>> I quite like the rest of this patch, but removing the underline >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> links is evil. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> People with vision impairment set their browser to override the >>>>>>> stylesheet, so the web works best for them personally. This is >>>>>>> not something that is specific to a particular site. I would >>>>>>> argue that underlining links impairs the vision of everybody >>>>>>> else ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The important thing is consistency: If it's blue it's a link, if >>>>>>> it's not blue it's not a link. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> This link should be helpful: >>>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html >>>>>> >>>>> Thank you (I am slightly shocked that it took two days for someone to >>>>> agree with me). The W3c agree: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-color >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I not trying to agree with anyone, just providing reference to what >>>> the experts think. Also you have to realize the target user of >>>> this website, 90% (more like 99.999%) have at least some technical >>>> background. Therefore they know how the web works and what and >>>> where links are. As far as the blind, what good is the website if >>>> they can't use the product?, AFAIK FreeBSD has no built-in >>>> accessibility and those blind people that did manage to get it >>>> installed are again going to have a technical background and will >>>> know how to navigate the web (the only thing they need are >>>> ALT/Title tags). This leaves only color blind people that we need >>>> to accommodate, text based web browsers (which don't display links >>>> as underlined or real link colors, pull up the FreeBSD site in >>>> Links), and old people (I group in the low-vision users here). So >>>> the only thing I agree with from Jakob Nielsen site is that of link >>>> color, normal text as the same color as links, using hover if links >>>> are not underlined, and the old people stuff. I don't care if links >>>> are underlined or not. >>>> >>> >>> Everything above boils down to "I don't see how this makes it hard for >>> people, so it's probably ok". I don't imagine that blind users (of >>> which there are quite a few) could care less whether links are >>> underlined or not, but if having links underlined makes it easier >>> for one person to find them (and I count towards that, so it's already >>> fulfilled) for whatever reason then they should be underlined. >>> >>> How about all the people who *don't* want them underlined do the thing >>> with the user-agent style sheets and see how keen they are on imposing >>> it on others then? >>> >>> In short: I will not commit, and will request a backout of, any patch >>> that turns off underlined links on the website. I may not stop >>> short of >>> backing it out myself either, and with that said I'll try not to reply >>> to this thread any more, for the sake of everyone's sanity. >>> >>> Ceri >>> >> Like I said earlier, I don't care ether way :-) ... So reading >> between the lines does this mean you'll commit the patch (do you have >> the power to do this?) if he underlines the links? > > > Here's what that would look like: > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1f.html > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2f.html > Still looks good :-)... ---- 1. Can anyone else see the Æ (AE) symbols where the registered trademark symbols should be, UNIX and MS-DOS? 2. In the navbar, where did you get the site map/index page from, I had no idea the website had one of those and I still can't find it on the real site. also labeling the link "index" on the navbar is misleading, I expected it to take me to index.html... the start page. I think that only works for books, If you labeled it "site index" then that would convey what the next page would be but then it would break your one word/link mold for the navbar. ---- And no, I haven't come up with alternate logos like I said I would. Between trying to get PhotoShop and WINE working on FreeBSD (any help here would be helpful) and rolling out major updates to are company intranet and server I haven't found the time, but I'd still like to do it.
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