From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mon Apr 25 08:22:35 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26774B113A8 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:22:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "cloud.theravensnest.org", Issuer "StartCom Class 1 DV Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F11A212CA for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.7] (cpc91230-cmbg18-2-0-cust661.5-4.cable.virginm.net [82.1.230.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u3P8MFJP066061 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:22:20 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: theravensnest.org: Host cpc91230-cmbg18-2-0-cust661.5-4.cable.virginm.net [82.1.230.150] claimed to be [192.168.0.7] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ECDCAE5E-6333-4FE2-B1D9-F07F03F80B6B"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Subject: Re: why 100 packages are evil From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <20160425074825.02a3b1409429ef916881ba46@aei.mpg.de> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:22:09 +0100 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <417F35C8-02A3-409E-9ABE-C4803B656862@FreeBSD.org> References: <76093.1461096570@critter.freebsd.dk> <5716AD65.8070007@shrew.net> <5716FA70.4080604@freebsd.org> <57170E5D.1090701@freebsd.org> <5524F499-5042-407E-9180-43D15A53F3F0@FreeBSD.org> <7621BDAB-A409-456A-A3F1-A6CD9B371DBC@rdsor.ro> <20160420094806.GJ6614@zxy.spb.ru> <7c84f388-21dc-419f-70ce-c5369e294dab@freebsd.org> <34743.1461428396@critter.freebsd.dk> <571BB660.1070107@FreeBSD.org> <20160425074825.02a3b1409429ef916881ba46@aei.mpg.de> To: =?utf-8?Q?Gerrit_K=C3=BChn?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:22:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ECDCAE5E-6333-4FE2-B1D9-F07F03F80B6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 25 Apr 2016, at 06:48, Gerrit K=C3=BChn = wrote: >=20 >> Yes. It will be replaced by 'pkg upgrade' -- as far as I know, = that's >> the plan for 11.0-RELEASE. >=20 > Hm... I never had any troubles with freebsd-update, it always "just > worked" for me. OTOH, I remember having several issues with pkg, = requiring > to fix databases manually and so on. There are two kinds of issues with freebsd-update: The first is fairly common: it=E2=80=99s slow and creates a lot of = files. If you read the forums, you=E2=80=99ll find a lot of issues = about this. Updates from one patchlevel to the next are pretty = straightforward, but on both the VMs that I use for FreeBSD and a slow = AMD machine with ZFS it takes around an hour (sometimes more) for = freebsd-update to jump one major release. After that, it takes pkg a = minute or two to update the 2-3GB of packages that need upgrading. = Minor releases can often take tens of minutes on these system. The many files issue can cause inode exhaustion. One one machine, I = just checked and have 20K files in /var/db/freebsd-update/files. If = you=E2=80=99re using UFS for /var, it=E2=80=99s fairly easy for = freebsd-update to run out of inodes. Trying to recover a FreeBSD system = that can no longer create files in /var is not the most fun uses of my = time. The second issue is that it sometimes just fails to work. I have twice = had freebsd-update manage to become confused about versions and install = a kernel that couldn=E2=80=99t read the filesystem. I=E2=80=99ve had = similar confusion where (on a box that I administer mostly via the = network and where physical access is a pain) had it install a version of = ifconfig from an older userland than the kernel. These are all on = machines where freebsd-update has been responsible for every upgrade = after the initial install from CD. Most depressingly, it spends ages = doing checksums of every file in the system, determines that they = don=E2=80=99t match the expected ones, and then installs the wrong one = anyway. I have been using the testing versions of pkg on most FreeBSD machines = since it became available. Since pkg 1.0 was released, I have had far = fewer issues with pkg than with freebsd-update and almost all of those = were to do with poor information in the ports tree and the rest were = either UI or performance issues. We have a lot tighter control over the = packaging metadata for the base system. David --Apple-Mail=_ECDCAE5E-6333-4FE2-B1D9-F07F03F80B6B Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIK5jCCBPww ggPkoAMCAQICECJrrb9nBol9MHok/UZg/AYwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwdTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwx FjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0Q29tIEx0ZC4xKTAnBgNVBAsTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24g QXV0aG9yaXR5MSMwIQYDVQQDExpTdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAxIENsaWVudCBDQTAeFw0xNjA0MTkw OTI3NDJaFw0xNzA0MTkwOTI3NDJaMEQxHTAbBgNVBAMMFHRoZXJhdmVuQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnMSMw IQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhR0aGVyYXZlbkBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEP ADCCAQoCggEBALsL5pEhrGjrswHVdMHWhgxb8ARKDYRePSqpDLmjJ40bpx+n1zrvIwjC2Vk2IpoD 04rg5Pog2IrhnX+Qk2NSXzBXWj2JAaTc9OtSeAY0BtgJYXONGONQbRKVy97QBdzd1SbMEzDrOgH5 UDI+5sF1PboOTmLyTAPI9273XdfZ0BnstUXs8NXr/7p9E5CWJOsO1iQcINbm4XiwC1PLNMeWUknE Nji/hFKwcE8IFtaUe1ymbw6yA3rBpDu3KewIRD1T66FPTZJeIzvUoBIqWd+GAOfCBG2QYmbc3y/x 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