From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 14 22:40:02 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41F516A4A5 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7167013C4DD for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u77so1614655pyb.3 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:40:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+mOs5NBO+KpZtwR3aFKSIlRXytLLZbdo2aFHSaQyuc0=; b=Ja1AB7ybImL4mqrxdWy6zp/0Y89ElIzARdCoJy5tvWq2ijk3wWY7gSLkFFQdv92T0MlvgnK6QSWiRpHGk6ipVZxeckgF5pM23faodkG71U4CgHrewbUqQkNY0rhAhgDd1ED8BnfkgkQEIvfUBvRYNs8cOPdLkmAznSb8NZum12w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eF6WM15ghfjodZZ5f++/07Z/rW0V/D4kQmeAco77DO0OapTOOdZ2A8AWxhUUInYV8Q/RzipS7iNLtCsqTawzNi+nm6XqdYuPSs8sLkhFBIpP8jQTgHjLucmtEMr7FP8a5JCysblQVyJYZAVlbXI6QiJevdSgRJ1PHJ0v3Qfbpw0= Received: by 10.65.236.13 with SMTP id n13mr8311055qbr.44.1197672001294; Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.2.2? ( [67.85.89.184]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e15sm2439173qbe.2007.12.14.14.39.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:39:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4763063E.7090800@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:39:58 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Remko Lodder References: <475F7390.9090509@gmail.com> <20071214121906.1241dcdd@gumby.homeunix.com.> <200712140947.26972.david@vizion2000.net> <476301A8.4090009@FreeBSD.org> <476303A3.4010205@gmail.com> <47630478.6060907@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <47630478.6060907@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Southwell , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Limitations of Ports System X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:40:02 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Remko Lodder wrote: > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >> Remko Lodder wrote: >>> David Southwell wrote: >>>> On Friday 14 December 2007 08:08:54 Paul Schmehl wrote: >>>>> --On Friday, December 14, 2007 12:19:06 +0000 RW >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:34:58 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> "Aryeh M. Friedman" wrote: >>>>>>> Namely if I build abc with options 123 and 345 and def >>>>>>> with 345 and 678 then 345 will be cached for def since >>>>>>> we already set it for abc. >>>>>> How do you know the user wants 345 set on both ports? >>>>>> >>>>>> It might be a useful stable feature on "abc", but causes >>>>>> lock-ups on "def" >>>>> SInce I've already killfiled Aryeh, I can only infer what >>>>> you are responding to and respond to him. But let me state >>>>> this emphatically in the hopes it will get through his >>>>> thick skull. >>>>> >>>> I do wish you could acquire the maturity to distinguish >>>> between the advantages that could come arguing your case >>>> clearly and collegially and the disadvantages that acrue from >>>> being personally antagonistic towards someone with whose >>>> analysis you happen to disagree. >>>> >>>> For me when someone becomes abusive they destroy their own >>>> credibility and get to sound as though they believe their >>>> opinions antitle them to be hateful and that their own views >>>> are somehow godgiven. >>>> >>>> >>>>> IT IS NOT THE JOB OF PORTS TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR USERS. >>>> IMHO Shouting make you less rather than more credible. >>>>> \Please repeat that one hundred times until it gets >>>>> through. >>>>> >>>> Endless repetition does not add strength to analysis!! >>>>> No port should *ever* make decisions on a users behalf. >>>>> Suggestions, yes (e.g. OPTIONS that are enabled by >>>>> default.) Decisions, no. If you depend on another port >>>>> *and* on certain knobs in that dependency being enabled, >>>>> then *tell* the user that during your port's install and >>>>> let them decide how to handle it. DO NOT enable those >>>>> knobs yourself, no matter how tempting it may be. >>>> IMHO You would sound more credible if you used the IMHO a bit >>>> more!! You might also gain some respect if you followed your >>>> own advice. Make suggestions for others to consider - do not >>>> decide, in advance, they are thick skulled if they do not >>>> agree with you!! >>>>> It is beyond impossible for anyone to know what every user >>>>> who is installing ports already has on their boxes or what >>>>> they might want to add or ***what you might break***. Once >>>>> you begin making decisions for them, you could well stomp >>>>> all over something that was functioning perfectly normally >>>>> and break a critical box. >>>>> >>>>> DON'T DO IT. That is so Microsoftian it's not funny. >>>> IMHO Shouting, hectoring and lecturing does not add weight to >>>> anyones point of view. >>>> >>>> >>> These threads have gone far enough, please consider taking this >>> off the FreeBSD mailinglists and discuss this privately. The >>> majority does not like the current ideas and want to see >>> something usefull first. People like Aryeh and David are not >>> really persons that one would see as the persons generating the >>> ports-infrastructure-ng till they have code. If you both keep >>> pissing off people that have a fair share in the ports >>> collection already, please do it by other means, dont crowd the >>> mailinglists with it. Your ideas might be perfect in your world >>> but they aint in ours (till you have shown working code). So >>> please stfu till you have some code and be done with it . >> Developing in a vacuum is a recipe for disaster.... we are making >> fairly good progress believe it or not I only see an other 1 or >> 2 threads being needed before actual coding starts, *BUT* >> producing a system no one wants is pointless thus it is wise to >> gather as much input as possible... why is it that everyone who >> sees the whole concept as being negative has offered no input >> what so ever about what should be done (even saying "the current >> system is fine" is useful to us) >> > > simply because we have seen it failing a lot of times. Please take > this offlist,discuss this and generate a nice PoC, then get back to > us, till that time, DONT bother the ports list with it or any other > list. You are the single reason for a HIGH S/N ration on MOST lists > I am subscribed to that is a REALLY -BAD- thing. Perhaps one reason it has failed is because there was not a wide enough front end effort to decide what was really needed vs. what some individual thought was needed... as to the s/n thing there would be lot less if you actually debated on the technical merits of the proposal and not the meta discussion of does something belong here or list b or where ever... unless you think community input is completely pointless I invite you to suggest an other medium that allows for it without making is semi-obscure and hard to find. > > You Simply dont understand the way it works here and I can > understand that till a certain point of view; take the advise; > discuss it elsewhere, and get back with working code (yeah I repeat > it twice because nobody seems to get through to you, and MANY > people tried it already). Oh I hear the message loud and clear and just happen to not agree with the thinking behind it. Namely ivory tower development has its place but not here. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHYwY+zIOMjAek4JIRAj/NAJ0aTnHnDejwXlujkc8AITtGqGxgywCgmoeh FcWtuCJqPmepfIUCgA87+lM= =S9wo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----