From owner-freebsd-usb@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 7 21:51:01 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-usb@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E721D1065673; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 21:51:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC818FC22; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 21:51:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6so230804vws.13 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Os5sZccNf+1UNum4YDDNO4NE9gZZkkxTWNRlMCMlR/k=; b=ZvqHlY4vCcLTpLOWwhfjit2x0p21AZFXbhU+l1v79USKxwQOiZPq5FTkxErI6o0c6/ PcXmDGlaKinRu0i8i/yklfVkSBEkuVnC8AsV4lrnR2EgYIxX2dP79AaGK2gVnwm5l/Lu CNb5EqH837wOyMRcEs5lhdhhXwtpjDBNH15Q8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=BwrrGHSHaXUv80WLSdLzvOrBMDAGRCeP4LFbO+G6HoSaa1jx2Ib3rV7cLXg2WzM20M kMKZjCENY7oS6BN4SIJtrRYRPeMN2yhndkJSJr4B1hxXLFGM+a5qgkPAHoitFCPcAbP6 Xd3BqyqT3EhjI/olxPXHUixCCcdkCPffAdOnw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.88.147 with SMTP id a19mr3668923vcm.259.1278539454989; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.174.42 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C34E910.5020007@aldan.algebra.com> References: <4C34C5DE.7040007@aldan.algebra.com> <20100707185928.GA16180@icarus.home.lan> <4C34E0E6.9070801@aldan.algebra.com> <4C34E910.5020007@aldan.algebra.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:50:54 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4RdDGJmQNXWtZ4RCprfWfwdm9N0 Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: "Mikhail T." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: tom@hur.st, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-usb@freebsd.org, Jeremy Chadwick Subject: Re: 8.x grudges X-BeenThere: freebsd-usb@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD support for USB List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 21:51:01 -0000 On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Mikhail T. wrote: > Your "telling" me this is just as valid as warning me against using > computer-cases of a particular color. It is a silly requirement. My > expecting things, that worked for 7, to work in 8 is reasonable. There may > be (documented!) exceptions, but it ought to "just work". Ok. So I guess that a registry backup from Windows XP should work in Windows 7? We both know the world doesn't work that way. Not only is it ridiculous, it inhibits progress. Do you have any idea how many lines of code we have to deal with to plan for older setups? Even just with the stuff that I work on, it's a constant consideration to plan for existing setups and older hardware. Sometimes changes have to be made. For everything to always be compatible, you'd be overly complicating things that are already complicated enough, just because you think the process is inconvenient. In other words, submit a patch. > > Yes, your way is fine. But so is mine. It is perfectly reasonable to expect > my method to work just as well -- the 7->8 is not revolutionary, but simply > the next step. I read the "UPDATING" file and, though annoyed a little, took > care of things mentioned in there... The remaining things are enumerated > here... > > > Your way clearly isn't fine, as it doesn't work. > > > That's an obviously flawed argument -- this line of thinking can be used > against ANY ONE reporting ANY BUG -- if one has a problem, then one's way of > doing things "clearly isn't fine". I can't boot my computer without power. There must be a bug! If you're doing it wrong, then it's not a bug. Would you expect to be able to use a FreeBSD 2.x kernel config file with 8.x? > > These changes aren't gratuitous. Did you read the commit messages > behind each of the changes? I'm guessing that you haven't. > > > No, and I'm not going to. A commercial OS would've been the laughing stock, > if one hand to change C: to 1: between releases, for example... It's not like this was a minor version bump. You expect to treat it like it is. Most commercial operating systems don't have a simple upgrade path between major versions without other problems, such as application compatibility issues, requiring hardware upgrades, etc. > > Again: this particular change seems gratuitous. > > > It's not. You didn't bother researching before complaining. > > I bothered to type up my list. Presumably, problem-reports are welcome. I've > been a Unix-user since 1990, a FreeBSD user since 1993 (or 94?), and a > project-member for a decade. If I have a problem, then newer users certainly > will too. And, guess what, they'll simply go with something, that does not > give as much grief... PRs are welcome. Not uninformed rants on mailing lists with people that continue to argue because the world didn't start rotating a different direction at their command. I'm surprised you didn't mention your beard length. New users won't be using a FreeBSD 7 kernel config file. They'll be using a FreeBSD 8 kernel config file because they are new. They also won't care that we renamed the serial device between 7.x and 8.x. My logic rocks worlds. > > To put it in simple terms, there were changes made to geom, and the way that > sysinstall writes out dedicated disks wasn't compatible. Search the > mailing list archives. > > > If this is a known problem, it is even more of an outrage, that some shim > was not introduced to keep the users from hitting this particular bump. Yawn. Submit a patch. I dare you. > The modification should be necessary. > > Why? Why should a netboot act differently from a local boot from CD? Because you're booting over a freaking network and not physical media. I am running out of good metaphors for you. Just accept the fact that installing over different media types means the configuration is different. Go look up what that variable means. That might be a good start. > You don't. But there is very little, that needs to be added there for it to > "just work" over both netboot and local CD, and you should do it, instead of > arguing with me here... No, I don't know, what it is exactly, but I'm quite > certain, it can't be very much. So you don't know what the problem is, you don't really know why things have to be done this way, but you're sure that making this change will have no unintended effects. If I made all my commits that way, I'd break the build. Oh, wait... > In fact, the article about PXE booting on the official freebsd website says > nothing about using the ISO. You just found some article that said it > was possible (and it is) and complained because you didn't like the > process? > > > Yes, exactly. I didn't like process -- it is needlessly complicated. The > same CD-image, should also be usable "out of the box" for netbooting. It's obvious you hate process, as you don't file PRs against these problems, you don't search the mailing list, you don't post questions in appropriate places, etc. > Funny. It works just fine in 8.0 on my Athlon. Have you tried updating > the port? > > Yes, I have -- and I said so in my very first e-mail on this subject. For > someone, who expects people to "research mailing lists", you do a terrible > job of following a one-day-old thread... Mine works. Yours doesn't. Maybe you should use portsnap. > Also, even if it didn't work, this is an issue you should > take up with the author of the port. > > Tom -- the maintainer -- is still in CC... Then why didn't you send a separate email to him so he didn't have to wade through this entire post? > > >From the man page: > > The amdtemp driver provides support for the on-die digital thermal > sensor > present in AMD K8, K10 and K11 processors. > > > I know nothing about the driver. Clearly. > But a utility I regularly used stopped > working after upgrade, so I added that to my list of upgrade-related > grudges. I have a grudge as well. I have a grudge against users that abuse developers (oh, you have a reputation, sir), try to use their age (ie: years of experience in being wrong) as an "I know what I'm talking about" point, crosspost unnecessarily long emails, don't file PRs, don't send patches, don't read documentation, and refuse to listen to common sense. No one is agreeing with you. Everyone is telling you that you're wrong. Clearly, it's a conspiracy. -- randi