From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 16:58:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7696E27AF82 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from warlock@phouka1.phouka.net) Received: from phouka1.phouka.net (phouka1.phouka.net [107.170.196.116]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "phouka.net", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494wyB2x4Cz4b73 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:58:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from warlock@phouka1.phouka.net) Received: from phouka1.phouka.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phouka1.phouka.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03JGtloH061925 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from warlock@phouka1.phouka.net) Received: (from warlock@localhost) by phouka1.phouka.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03JGtlI4061924; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from warlock) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:55:47 -0700 From: John Kennedy To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20200419165547.GB923@phouka1.phouka.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494wyB2x4Cz4b73 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of warlock@phouka1.phouka.net has no SPF policy when checking 107.170.196.116) smtp.mailfrom=warlock@phouka1.phouka.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.36)[ipnet: 107.170.192.0/18(0.61), asn: 14061(1.25), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[phouka.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.92)[0.918,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.992,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warlock@phouka.net,warlock@phouka1.phouka.net]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:107.170.192.0/18, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warlock@phouka.net,warlock@phouka1.phouka.net]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:58:27 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 01:50:07PM +0200, Jan Beich wrote: > Tomasz CEDRO writes: > > > Hello world :-) > > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > > Anyone using Wayland with success already? > > Many, bsdstats.org should have some numbers from those who opted in. > wlroots-based compositors have very good support and can be tested > without leaving the comfort zone of xorg-server: > > - x11-wm/cage: kiosk, good for nesting > - x11-wm/hikari: stacking with some tiling, developed on FreeBSD > - x11-wm/sway: manual tiling, often first to adopt new wlroots features > - x11-wm/wayfire: stacking with some tiling, many plugins > > ... I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example, > "vblank_mode=0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg server. ;) I did some testing a while back and was generally happy. I had some issues with crashing and weird-console-mode (and Jan may have been the one that pointed me at proposed patches that helped, at least with console mode), but I was pretty happy with the results, not that I kept up with it because of the crashing. This was months and months, even before the virus before-time. The crashing was all about how many windows you had open, which I could easily hit with web browsing (somewhere north of 28). It crashed wayland back to text console, so that was sorta hard on work productivity which is why I backed off. That could be fixed by now. At home where i have fast computers and non-work hours, I tend to have nVidia which initially seemed to be an issue (nvidia-driver). It didn't occur to me to try a different nvidia driver that might have worked. I started out with sway (pre-hikari) because of the early work done there. I'm still rocking 1980s retro-style X11 (including ctwn) because I want a light-weight, minimalistic (small attack surface area), although in the past I've used Gnome and Xfce (via Fedora). It's a LOT of extra pieces, but I really started to draw the line when they were going for "social" integration. I don't want a vast chunk of my graphics stack connected to outside input, so back to the 80s I went, trying to add some eye candy to keep me happy. In short, I'm looking for something that doesn't have a ton of baggage (at least if it's the baggage I don't want). (: Minimal attack surface area. To me, wayland is a good thing because it tries to cut out some serious ancient X11 dead-wood, but still seems to let all the regular X11 apps run (IE, backward compatibility). I think X is trying to do this too, but very very slowly because they have a LOT of compatibility to maintain. If they pulled a X12 break-fix, then they have years of fun. But they know it: https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/ Right now, it feels like the equivalent of the entire Xserver is built into the window manager. I suppose that is Ok, if I was really into that specific window manager. I'm not sure if that will cause an explosion of window managers (not that x11-wm doesn't contain a ton, but it's had decades). As as user of something that is inspired by twm, I shouldn't throw stones there.