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Date:      Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:58:26 -0400
From:      Randall Hopper <rhh@ct.picker.com>
To:        lamaster@george.arc.nasa.gov
Cc:        multimedia@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: BT848 & ATI / S3 Cards
Message-ID:  <19970911185826.36797@ct.picker.com>
In-Reply-To: <199709112055.NAA29600@george.arc.nasa.gov>; from lamaster@george.arc.nasa.gov on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 01:55:24PM -0700
References:  <199709112055.NAA29600@george.arc.nasa.gov>

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lamaster@george.arc.nasa.gov:
 |I use both an ATI Graphics Xpression [uses Mach64, but limited 
 |to 2 MB on the card] and a Number Nine 968-based card.  I got 

 |I could only get it to work with fxtv at 8 bpp- it hung
 |with 24/32 bpp.  Anyway, the ATI card could be replaced 
 |with a newer card if I could find the right card.

That's interesting.  Doug White's got a Mach64 card too and said it worked
in 8,15,16,32 bpp, just not 24.  This was however a Pro Turbo which has the
faster VRAM; the Xpression has DRAM as I recall.  Might make a difference.

Does it lock your machine?  Lock the Xserver?  Or just not display video?
Is it running ximages mode or direct video when it locks (i.e. did it print
"backing off and using XImages" when you started it up).  If it was doing
direct video, for a test add "-disableDirectV" to the command line to
disable direct video.  If this works OK, this might indicate a problem with
PCI-PCI DMA on your system, possibly related to the chipset or that the
DRAM Xpression not being able to handle the bandwidth.  Note that in 8bpp
mode, you're not using direct video.

You can try using 1024x768 in 15 or 16 bpp on your 2Meg ATI Xpression.  I
think you'll be pretty satisified with this mode since you can get your
1024x768 resolution and probably with direct video too.  It also cuts the
TV bandwidth down by 1/3 over 24bpp.  The direct video will lift a big load
off your CPU compared to 8bpp, and the TV will look worlds better too. :-)

 |I haven't been that impressed, I admit, with the S3 XFree86 
 |performance, compared to commercial X servers (e.g. the server 
 |on the SGI Irix 6.2).  I'm surprised, now that I look at it,
 |that it has the DGA extension.  Do I need to do anything 
 |to "exercise" it?  

No, given that you have a solid PCI chipset, I think you're home free.
Some of the best supported and best performing cards under XFree are S3.
No surprise that a good many folks on the list run S3 968 or Virge cards.
Compared to an SGI, few consumer PC cards are steller.  But relative to
other PC cards under XFree, they're up there in the ratings. 

 |Anyway, what I'm verbosely leading up to is this:
 |
 |I could easily persuade myself to get a new board, if I could
 |find the right card.  

I'd try both your cards you have first.  I'll assist any way I can to work
through any TV problems.  If neither of them ends up meeting your
expectations, then you might look around.

 |Do you know if XFree86 can be made to both support 1280x1024
 |*and* 24/32 bpp?.  Do any of these cards support 1280x1024 
 |*and* 24/32 bpp under XFree86?  How about the STB Virge/VX board 
 |you mention above?  (How much memory do you have?)  How about 

For detailed XFree card support info, you probably want to surf: 
     http://www.xfree86.org/3.3.1

To do 1280x1024 in true 32bpp or unpacked 24bpp, your gonna need a card
with at least 5Meg o' memory (!).  For 1280x1024 w/ packed 24bpp, you're down
below 4Meg.  However, unless you spend lots of time doing image processing
or photorealistic display, you may find like me that you like 16bpp the
best, getting you higher resolutions, bigger desktops, and better refresh
rates with the same amount of memory.  So if you live mostly in
1280x1024x16bpp (> 2Meg), sounds like you're still looking for a card with
4Meg (or more if 16bpp doesn't cut it).

Regarding my card.  My priorities when I bought it this spring: "big" XFree
desktop in 16bpp, high refresh rates especially in high-res modes,
Wincast/TV compatible, solid/stable XFree and MSW95 support, good 2D DOS
and Windoze performance, didn't/don't care about hardware 3D yet (no
standard), and good vendor support.  (I plan to upgrade to a 21" monitor
sometime soon, so that factored in.)

After talking to the folks on the multimedia list and surfing vendor pages,
STB Velocity 3D 4Meg was the best deal for me.  Steve Passe in particular
has one of these as well and runs it in 1600x1200x75Mhz -- where I hope to
be someday :-) Virge/VX chipset, EDO VRAM (great for direct video and video
perf), and sports a 220MHz RAMDAC (one of the highest-speed RAMDACs on a
consumer card, giving very high refresh rates at high resolutions).  And
only $179 half a year ago -- and that wasn't the cheapest price then;
surely that's gone even lower by now.

 |the Matrox Millenium II, which, I guess, can be acquired a lot 
 |more cheaply now the previous Millenium.  (DGA/direct-video?)

Can't speak to the Milleniums.  Amancio's got one now so he'd be the guy to
quiz there about TV and direct video on those cards.

 |I guess there are new STB and Number Nine cards also.  I suppose
 |that none of these boards are supported yet under XFree86.

If you mean the new Virge/DX and /GX cards, yes they're supported (see the
XFree URL above).  No first hand experience but that's what the page says.

However, keep in mind that the DX and GX, though newer and having better 3D
performance, only support a 170Mhz RAMDAC.  May not be important to you --
you have to decide.  In order, the Virge RAMDAC speed limits are: Virge =
135Mhz, GX/DX/GX2 = 170Mhz, VX = 220Mhz.  Non-OEM Velocity 3Ds (Virge/VX)
all come standard with 220Mhz.  The Diamond Stealth 3D 3000s (Virge/VX)
come with either 220Mhz or something like 170Mhz, so if that makes a
difference you have to be careful.

 |Anyway again, do you know of a web page somewhere which describes
 |this product matrix of boards, XFree86 features, how to optimize,
 |etc.?  It took me a surprising amount of messing around just with
 |XFree86 to get what I have now [in contrast, installing FreeBSD
 |has been a total piece of cake - amazingly high quality kernel].

Vendor pages, the XFree URL I mentioned above, and maybe the XFree
benchmark page (http://www.goof.com/xbench/) are all that come to mind.
Sounds like with your color depth and resolution requirements, you can thin
the possiblities down to a small shopping list without much trouble.

Hope this provides some help.  Let me know how the TV tests go and if I can
provide any additional video card info.

Randall Hopper



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