From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Mon Aug 12 13:29:39 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294F3B394B for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:29:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adamw@adamw.org) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 466cC53C05z4Lqw for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:29:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adamw@adamw.org) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id p74so12180413wme.4 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=adamw-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uMbFzC5hHEb60onPXFPssj5fDXIcnG1AnUS84WCPXLA=; b=N4B1fsop1DeblnuiOcOoL72z+RCqFuFH/P0MrGJQT+JI5D6xbe5mW90bpbzRiBEp9y rp2/Vu2cISw8cD34lD9uL8+6K0R+ZEXCEcVu3mas5H6Xad20i5e5+TuYxqY7pajvwyEn g/aD3xJJDFJe6TYkBhcEmXMPB4a4lbVi/8tJbQv8CUr/3OPlysAne2CUmPdUOXW1Z7A2 iR5iza3Jpaj5DWX5oi7eYH2JXmIVNgHAY7m1haci1M+D/vDuizLrhkvjd5G6MFLyDbbc 2OXqZoPfHDc4Kg1py3hM2f8xvkq9zfD1mb9gBhnqqltoEXMdr1BUi/YoEQd05f9UCs3S 9c2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uMbFzC5hHEb60onPXFPssj5fDXIcnG1AnUS84WCPXLA=; b=c0jFM8eGbA4f+g/dnSFao5BEYBpEHPRZPVkekrnfviJzu8pPMMRELzNhfzOtAgWQsh UwK5RiQ6noAjEa2QeOYnKEb+OgF7CW8iXza4aoYePONsA0qlAuHL5Poc2pGcjvxZwpy9 Oj6CZhQ/rRILWEYUAXPOeqQXAZ2UlbtuiwEvFlVoPChOkgzxXxDW5R13tBapI1r2evOR T1PZurLFoBEaJi970EIBvMnUhapnk9Bm/yAaTHAniaMZk8zOKjPEzYzMqv+aTWPV5TjH RdlCvwfD1bfLkJjROxY96rGQ9GWdtnBAGAO6hQq/jGrDAKODbQ9KHfbujiQubFhaqVht o+tg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWY8NPyK8vGNjhzPLSVAUrYfeLKrD3Gy1OeDiKBVCEq5J4YQHmv X9EBVyhmNJ1ChjQ6PB9w/c9WRmjjDV0LhlBPz9MhovJOQig= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwVliCC62uVOnWTEeO7k28/q7cn3e1SKB6mjdIRNFu+jKWLZOfz6DsI1GBA8T2gx8G9M1SO3L+0uwK97Rpz6uY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:254c:: with SMTP id e12mr3547457wma.168.1565616575078; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 06:29:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64faf143-bae3-378c-3ee2-b196c2ea4111@astart.com> <16731AF5-68E9-4E41-8D21-CF5917BE32A4@waschbuesch.de> <20190810231216.GA23293@lyxys.ka.sub.org> <2DE6652A-86FF-4F07-9F8D-97E845D41E41@waschbuesch.de> In-Reply-To: <2DE6652A-86FF-4F07-9F8D-97E845D41E41@waschbuesch.de> From: Adam Weinberger Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 07:29:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: PHP version retirement To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Waschb=C3=BCsch?= Cc: FreeBSD Ports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 466cC53C05z4Lqw X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adamw-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=N4B1fsop; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of adamw@adamw.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::335 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=adamw@adamw.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.51 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adamw-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-ports@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adamw.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adamw-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-3.02)[ip: (-9.61), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-3.04), asn: 15169(-2.39), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:29:39 -0000 On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:04 AM Martin Waschb=C3=BCsch wrote: > >>>> Furthermore, the argument that it is more more work to maintain an a= bandoned version is silly because it=E2=80=99s more work to delete a port t= hat to just keep it in the tree for a while longer. > >>> > >>> That last part isn't correct. The work of deleting the ports is > >>> largely automated and simple, and it will always happen eventually. > >>> The work involved is in supporting unsupported versions. Our php team > >>> is spread very thin, and they simply cannot support php versions > >>> outside of upstream development. There are no resources to backport > >>> fixes that may or may not be designed to work with older versions > >> > >> I do not understand this. At all. > >> And I sort of hope I misunderstood you, because it sounds like you thi= nk a maintainer is or may be regarded as someone who can be expected to pro= vide product support of some kind? > >> I find that notion worrying to say the least. > > > > If you believe that handling updates, analyzing submitted and upstream > > patches and development, and answering a bevy of questions for every > > major update is effortless, then you drastically underestimate the > > amount of work that goes into the ports tree. > > You completely misunderstand me. > I know there is a lot of effort going into this. I disagree only in that = I do not believe there should be any expectations towards maintainers. > It is voluntary work. Spare time, etc. I am grateful for the effort peopl= e put into this, but I strongly believe no one should act towards volunteer= s with any expectations as to what they should do, how much time they spend= , etc. > > So, I find it wrong to say, as I understood you, to remove a package from= the ports tree because otherwise others people, for instance users of Free= BSD, would have the *expectation* of receiving support for those packages. > That perception of any kind of entitlement towards volunteers is wrong, I= MHO. > > And that is why I answered that part of your message because it is not (f= or reasons stated above) a valid argument against having outdated software = in the ports tree. Ah! You're right, I did completely misunderstand you. You're correct that we don't provide any semblance of support for the upstream software. Absolutely, and under no circumstances should anyone have to. I'm referring to support of the port itself. Maintainership requires responding to private emails asking for help; evaluating, testing, and approving submitted patches; responding to PRs about changes or fixes or poor behaviour (90% of the time related to portmaster); responding to error reports; and so on. We do expect those things from maintainers, because those are what are required to keep the ports tree running. And we actively drop maintainership from ports where maintainers routinely ignore those responsibilities, regardless of whether they have a commit bit. As decke noted, maintainership of a small port with relatively low deployment is pretty smooth (and don't get me wrong, they're as or more important than the big packages). But a huge and complex framework like php is a massive undertaking, with a near-constant barrage of complex patches that require highly complex testing strategies, and thousands of dependent ports to worry about for every change. I suggested that it might be possible for stale languages to remain in the tree, as long as the above support wasn't required or expected. But, honestly, Franco's response mocking the offer made my desire to help him somewhere at or below zero, and has pretty much ensured that nobody else in portmgr is going to be eager to get skin in the game. # Adam --=20 Adam Weinberger adamw@adamw.org https://www.adamw.org