From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Mar 1 12:46:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD22151650C; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:46:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07AD876F14; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:46:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x21CkJA4061338; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x21CkJSb061337; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201903011246.x21CkJSb061337@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: DRM removal soon In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:46:19 -0800 (PST) CC: "A. Wilcox" , Doug Kirk , FreeBSD X11 mailing list , Steve Kargl , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 07AD876F14 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.74)[0.741,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.31)[0.312,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.59)[0.588,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.01)[ip: (0.06), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.03), asn: 13868(0.01), country: US(-0.07)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2019 12:46:24 -0000 ( trimmed ) > > The project has always had tension between the new and the old. Sometimes > it has been beneficial, other times less so. The project needs to have the > space to have these discussions, even if sometimes they go a bit far. In > the end, a number of new things were learned about what was and wasn't > working. We learned that drm2 never worked with PAE. We learned about -m32 > to create 32-bit binaries, and that the FPU is programmed the same. We've > learned the cost of keeping drm2 around is keeping obsolete xf86-ati-video > drivers as well since the ABI of drm and xf86*video software has evolved > beyond the level we had in drm2. > > So while this discussion has had some excesses, misinterpretations, > grumpiness, hurt feelings, and frustration, it's also revealed many truths > that weren't widely known before. We could do the former better, but the > latter is undeniably a good thing. BRAVO! I know no one likes bikesheeds, but if we totally avoid them we also avoid communicating. I have repeatly heard from users, developers, and other project members that are up or down stream from FreeBSD that they simply "do not want to get involved as that would just be a bikeshead." I think this lack of engagement and willingness to listen, on all sides, has had a very negative effect on many things. It boils down to we are litterly choosing to not communicate, and by doing so we have also elected to allow others to make the decisions, which then later cause us or others unknown grief. Again, BRAVO Warner, well said! -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org