From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 2 10:50:19 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8797816A417 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:50:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (idcmail-mo1so.shaw.ca [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629A613C45D for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:50:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.109]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JNQ009PYM1T9Q20@l-daemon> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:49:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.80]) by pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-7.05 (built Sep 5 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNQ00I9WM1T4N00@pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:49:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from soralx ([24.87.3.133]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JNQ00HY1M1RB071@l-daemon> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:49:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 03:49:12 -0700 From: soralx@cydem.org In-reply-to: <20070901.214507.-345493889.imp@bsdimp.com> To: imp@bsdimp.com Message-id: <20070902034912.4b3b7af8@soralx> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.10.0 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i386-portbld-freebsd6.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <46D7186D.8030508@gahr.ch> <200708302124.48899.max@love2party.net> <46D71A16.6020005@gahr.ch> <20070901.214507.-345493889.imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: max@love2party.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, gahr@gahr.ch Subject: Re: what happened to make world? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:50:19 -0000 > : > On Thursday 30 August 2007, Pietro Cerutti wrote: > : >> # make world > : >> WARNING: make world will overwrite your existing FreeBSD > : >> installation without also building and installing a new > : >> kernel. This can be dangerous. Please read the handbook, > : >> 'Rebuilding world', for how to upgrade your system. > : >> Define DESTDIR to where you want to install FreeBSD, > : >> including /, to override this warning and proceed as usual. > : >> You may get the historical 'make world' behavior by defining > : >> HISTORICAL_MAKE_WORLD. You should understand the implications > : >> before doing this. [...] > : I don't want my OS to treat me like a stupid. > > I will note that since we switched to the multi-phase world with > explicit reboot instructions, the support load for 'oh no, I shot > myself in the foot' has gone way down. There are times that one must > put a few safety rails in place. Since we have limited resources for > support for users, it is better to make them make sure they know what > they are doing so we can focus our resources better. > > Sometimes we have to optimize for developer time in the tradeoffs that > are made. Against any bit of modesty that's left in me, I'll crawl out of my cave for a second here -- to make a wise comment, no doubt ;) Not trying to start offtopic, just a little remark that's of importance to me (and to many other FreeBSD users, I bet). Not every FreeBSD user is [still] a "computer enthusiast". It just so happens that the OS at the time is the best one for many, many different uses, such as: server, router, research workstation, 'desktop', etc. It is basically an excellent universal tool for many (computer_science|IT)-unrelated tasks, e.g. machine in a physics lab. The ideal tool, of course, is the one that Just Works. Some of the folks using it can't afford the time expense of figuring out how exactly it's geared -- as long as things are working. If it Just Dies at any wrong move -- then, well, one can loose a lot of time, and be pretty screwed. I just hope that you developers won't be forgetting about the users. None of that "Are you sure?" nonsense is needed (it interferes with work as one gains experience), but just a helpful info message or a warning at the right moment is sure nice -- it makes things less painful and more productive. You see, it'd make me really sad to see FBSD go in the direction of Linux one day, and be geared towards (hackish) developers. Meaningless (to a mere mortal) error messages, obscure ways of doing things, chaotic development, and so on. Quite user-unfriendly. These things aren't "bad", they just tend to make the OS less useful as a tool. BTW, if this thread doesn't burn out, then perhaps it's about time it should start drifting in the general direction of -chat@... > Warner [SorAlx] ridin' VS1400