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Date:      Mon, 04 Jun 2012 04:40:32 +0700
From:      Erich <erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com>
To:        bf1783@gmail.com
Cc:        freebsd-ports@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
Message-ID:  <3136851.0ak4zrFd2I@x220.ovitrap.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAGFTUwOAKp2wWm=42Y5wBMpVytYXQtmJ-gx4rVtGvGRKWGg6iw@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CAGFTUwOAKp2wWm=42Y5wBMpVytYXQtmJ-gx4rVtGvGRKWGg6iw@mail.gmail.com>

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Hi,

On 03 June 2012 PM 1:12:38 b. f. wrote:
> > On 03 June 2012 PM 5:42:55 Adam Strohl wrote:
> > > On 6/3/2012 17:24, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> > > I feel like this thread is grossly overstating how often ports are
> > > broken which is super rare in my experience. Proposing a version'd ports
> > > tree seems like a bad-practice-encouraging-solution to a problem that
> > > doesn't really exist [in my experience].
> > >
> > do a simple thing. Install a naked 8.3, 9.0 or 10.0 on a fresh hard disk. Get then the ports tree and start compiling X.
> >
> > I did not get a running system since at least 2007 when I did this. There was always at least one manual intervention needed.
> >
> > I did this the last time in the first week of May.
> >
> > Yes, I know how to fix this. Yes, I reported things like this at the beginning. After getting always the answer that it is working on my machine, I stopped reporting it.
> >
> 
> It is difficult to know how to respond to these anecdotes -- we don't
> know how many and what kind of problems you encountered, what you did

I know. It was always something simple. Like building a port by hand which was needed by X.

> when you performed these builds, and how you went about reporting the
> problems -- all of which can make a big difference in the outcome.  I
> will only say that, apart from occasional disruptions, it is usually
> possible now to build commonly-used ports with default options on
> amd64 and i386 in controlled builds without incident.  And the numbers
> from the FreeBSD package-building cluster support this:

I know this. As I said, it was always something very simple.
> 
> With regard to your request for a versioned Ports trees -- well, we
> have had that for about 18 years, since the Ports tree is kept under
> version control in CVS, and you are free to check out snapshots using
> anonymous CVS or CVSup -- all you have to do is specify a tag or date

I would not know for what tag I would have to go to solve a specific Problem.

> spec, as described in several places -- csup(1), cvs(1), the FreeBSD
> Handbook, etc. You can even get per-delta granularity via ctm(1), and
> I'd guess that there is a way to do it using rsync, too.   And if you
> don't like CVS, then you can import the repository into another VCS.

This is a show stopper for a beginner.

> So it has always been possible to roll back to earlier versions of the
> ports tree without too much trouble.  What is more difficult, and what
> is unlikely to happen soon, because we don't have enough manpower and
> computing resources, is to maintain multiple versions of the tree that
> are selectively updated.  But I suspect that it would be less trouble

This is not what I am asking. The ports tree should not be maintained.

All I am asking is to make what seems to be 100% in place available to the beginner via a version number. The beginner can than use this version number to fall back to something that will work for him.

> for you to just work to solve problems with the current Ports tree
> than to try to do this yourself.
> 
> And you are, of course, free to use FreeBSD with other packaging

They will feel to be free to use Windows.

> systems, like pkgsrc.  Or to use one of the FreeBSD hybrids produced
> by Gentoo, Debian, et al., with their respective packaging systems.
> Using FreeBSD does not mean that you have to use FreeBSD Ports,
> although this may be a good choice for you.
> 
> As far as your example from your other message about having to combine
> a png update with work over the course of a weekend -- I don't know
> why you would be fooling around with an update of your Ports tree or
> your installed ports while working under a tight deadline, but if you
> have backups, you should be able to recover from most problems fairly
> quickly.

Because it is written in the handbook?

At least some time ago the handbook stated to update the ports tree before installing new ports.

The new comer will do this and then get stuck.

Do not forget that I am not talking here for people who know what they are doing, I am talking about a hurdle newcomers are facing or people who just want to use a computer as a tool.

Erich
> 
> b.
> 



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