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Sat, 21 Mar 2026 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Commit messages for all branches of the src repository List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-commits-src-all List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: dev-commits-src-all@freebsd.org Sender: owner-dev-commits-src-all@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <69b561ff.39ea9.b797d91@gitrepo.freebsd.org> <2jb2vg6baofimu5xkxf62o5ogaq7fu5pk4o3vzhpegy446bppf@fzwtj6wtwk53> <20260321090444.6f81da15@thor.sb211.local> <5eaaokkdmmkcojky7362jvkandaard6eu26n77f5z5q7lqutu5@kywp5prvxozj> In-Reply-To: <5eaaokkdmmkcojky7362jvkandaard6eu26n77f5z5q7lqutu5@kywp5prvxozj> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2026 09:30:22 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AaiRm535kyxqFMLy3VQWoI3uJwaW0fH3kQh5jM6nSCzOrVckUU8lRoFffkELMWs Message-ID: Subject: Re: git: 8a62a2a5659d - main - zfs: merge openzfs/zfs@f8e5af53e To: Shawn Webb Cc: A FreeBSD User , Charlie Li , Martin Matuska , src-committers , "" , "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008756d0064d8a7b4d" X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4fdNg36qtDz3WyX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --0000000000008756d0064d8a7b4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM Shawn Webb wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 09:18:20AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2026, 9:08=E2=80=AFAM Shawn Webb > wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 09:04:17AM +0100, A FreeBSD User wrote: > > > > Am Tage des Herren Fri, 20 Mar 2026 23:27:20 -0400 > > > > Charlie Li schrieb: > > > > > > > > > Shawn Webb wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 04:52:16PM +0000, Shawn Webb wrote: > > > > > >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 10:44:59AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 10:36=E2=80=AFAM Shawn Webb < > > > shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org> > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> Hey Martin, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On Sat, Mar 14, 2026 at 01:26:23PM +0000, Martin Matuska > wrote: > > > > > >>>>> The branch main has been updated by mm: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> URL: > > > > > >>>> > > > > https://cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D8a62a2a5659d1839d8799b4274c0446= 9d7f17c78 > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> commit 8a62a2a5659d1839d8799b4274c04469d7f17c78 > > > > > >>>>> Merge: f91464171d61 f8e5af53e92f > > > > > >>>>> Author: Martin Matuska > > > > > >>>>> AuthorDate: 2026-03-14 12:14:56 +0000 > > > > > >>>>> Commit: Martin Matuska > > > > > >>>>> CommitDate: 2026-03-14 12:14:56 +0000 > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> [snip for brevity] > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Obtained from: OpenZFS > > > > > >>>>> OpenZFS commit: f8e5af53e92fa7c03393fbd4922cb9c1d0c159= 20 > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> This commit seems to cause issues when building boot loader > > > related > > > > > >>>> code: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D BEGIN LOG =3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > >>>> 114232 bytes available > > > > > >>>> btxld -v -f aout -e 0x200000 -o loader_simp -l > > > > > >>>> /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/stand/i386/btx/btxldr/btxldr -= b > > > > > >>>> /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/stand/i386/btx/btx/btx > > > loader_simp.bin > > > > > >>>> kernel: ver=3D1.02 size=3D690 load=3D9000 entry=3D9010 map= =3D16M > pgctl=3D0:58 > > > > > >>>> client: fmt=3Delf size=3D5e2e8 text=3D57930 data=3D514c bss= =3D7470 > entry=3D0 > > > > > >>>> output: fmt=3Daout size=3D61000 text=3D1000 data=3D5f000 org= =3D200000 > > > entry=3D200000 > > > > > >>>> =3D=3D=3D> stand/i386/pxeldr (all) > > > > > >>>> -560 bytes available > > > > > >>>> *** Error code 1 > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> What all do you have enabled? The defaults aren't even close = to > > > running out > > > > > >>> of space (though I've not looked at this). > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hey Warner, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks for reaching out! I've uploaded `make showconfig` here: > > > > > >> https://hardenedbsd.org/~shawn/2026-03-17_srcconf-r01.txt > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The following options are specific to HardenedBSD (in no > particular > > > > > >> order): > > > > > >> > > > > > >> 1. MK_HBSD_UPDATE > > > > > >> 2. MK_HBSDCONTROL > > > > > >> 3. MK_PIE > > > > > >> 4. MK_RELRO > > > > > >> 5. MK_SHLIBRANDOM > > > > > >> 6. MK_ZERO_REGS > > > > > >> 7. MK_SPECTREV1_FIX > > > > > >> 8. MK_SAFESTACK > > > > > >> 9. MK_RETPOLINE > > > > > >> 10. MK_LTOLIB > > > > > >> 11. MK_CFI > > > > > > > > > > > > MK_RETPOLINE was the culprit. Something about this ZFS commit > causes > > > > > > LLVM to emit more retpoline entries than before--too many for a > > > little > > > > > > bootloader. That might be something to investigate later, but > only to > > > > > > satisfy a curious mind, not to actuall fix anything (since > nothing's > > > > > > actually broken.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it doesn't really make sense to apply speculative executi= on > > > > > > mitigations to a bootloader, I disabled retpoline for a > components > > > > > > in stand/. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good to go. > > > > > > > > > > > Also just got bit by this, albeit during the lua loader, since I > have > > > > > WITH_RETPOLINE in my src.conf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I do not have WITH_RETPOLINE in my /etc/src.conf, but since I got > this > > > mysterious error about > > > > not enough bytes left, I use WITHOUT_LOADER_PXEBOOT=3D YES (due to > issues > > > with WITH_BEARSSL=3DYES > > > > also used). > > > > Despite not using any WITH_RETPOLINE I also catch the error ... > > > > > > Something about this ZFS commit causes the boot laoder to be too big. > > > I guess the first sign of trouble was with retpolines, but there seem > > > to now be additional signs. > > > > > > What's the process for filing a bug report against OpenzFS for > > > something like this? (Not asking you directly, just a general questio= n > > > for the thread.) > > > > > > > That's a good question. We are rapidly aporoaching the day we will have > to > > freeze the set of zfs feature that we can boot with the BIOS path. > There's > > only so much space. > > > > Right now, there's little to no bootloader testing, let alone analysis > > done and that will need to change. > > Another question might also be: is it worth the time and effort? Are > people really using a ZFS-enabled traditional MBR BIOS bootloader on > FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (or eventual 16.0-RELEASE)? From my rather naive > (and ignorant, since I don't know FreeBSD's userbase well), it seems > like folks use either loader.efi or u-boot (or both!) > Nobody uses MBR BIOS bootloader. It's totally unsupported. They all use the GPT one, which is used for all kinds of things, most recently several light-weight VM systems that don't have UEFI. BIOS is what imposes the limit, not MBR. But there's a huge number of systems that are already in the field that nee= d to be upgradeable, but we will eventually need to draw a line in the sand for that. > Not a question I can answer, of course, because everyone likely has a > different take on what "worth the time and effort" means to them. :-) > Yea, the BIOS path is stubbornly hanging around. Warner > Thanks, > > -- > Shawn Webb > Cofounder / Security Engineer > HardenedBSD > > Signal Username: shawn_webb.74 > Tor-ified Signal: +1 303-901-1600 / shawn_webb_opsec.50 > > https://git.hardenedbsd.org/hardenedbsd/pubkeys/-/raw/master/Shawn_Webb/0= 3A4CBEBB82EA5A67D9F3853FF2E67A277F8E1FA.pub.asc > --0000000000008756d0064d8a7b4d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Mar 21,= 2026 at 9:23=E2=80=AFAM Shawn Webb <shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 09:18:20AM -06= 00, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2026, 9:08=E2=80=AFAM Shawn Webb <shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2026 at 09:04:17AM +0100, A FreeBSD User wrote: > > > Am Tage des Herren Fri, 20 Mar 2026 23:27:20 -0400
> > > Charlie Li <vishwin@freebsd.org> schrieb:
> > >
> > > > Shawn Webb wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 04:52:16PM +0000, Shawn We= bb wrote:
> > > > >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 10:44:59AM -0600, Warn= er Losh wrote:
> > > > >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026 at 10:36=E2=80=AFAM S= hawn Webb <
> > s= hawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Hey Martin,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Sat, Mar 14, 2026 at 01:26:23PM +00= 00, Martin Matuska wrote:
> > > > >>>>> The branch main has been updated b= y mm:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> URL:
> > > > >>>>
> > https://= cgit.FreeBSD.org/src/commit/?id=3D8a62a2a5659d1839d8799b4274c04469d7f17c78<= /a>
> >
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> commit 8a62a2a5659d1839d8799b4274c= 04469d7f17c78
> > > > >>>>> Merge: f91464171d61 f8e5af53e92f > > > > >>>>> Author:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin = Matuska <mm@FreeBSD.org>
> > > > >>>>> AuthorDate: 2026-03-14 12:14:56 +0= 000
> > > > >>>>> Commit:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin = Matuska <mm@FreeBSD.org>
> > > > >>>>> CommitDate: 2026-03-14 12:14:56 +0= 000
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> [snip for brevity]
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Obtained from:= =C2=A0 OpenZFS
> > > > >>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 OpenZFS commit= : f8e5af53e92fa7c03393fbd4922cb9c1d0c15920
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> This commit seems to cause issues when= building boot loader
> > related
> > > > >>>> code:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D BEGIN LOG =3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > >>>> 114232 bytes available
> > > > >>>> btxld -v -f aout -e 0x200000 -o loader= _simp -l
> > > > >>>> /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/stand/i38= 6/btx/btxldr/btxldr=C2=A0 -b
> > > > >>>> /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/stand/i38= 6/btx/btx/btx
> > loader_simp.bin
> > > > >>>> kernel: ver=3D1.02 size=3D690 load=3D9= 000 entry=3D9010 map=3D16M pgctl=3D0:58
> > > > >>>> client: fmt=3Delf size=3D5e2e8 text=3D= 57930 data=3D514c bss=3D7470 entry=3D0
> > > > >>>> output: fmt=3Daout size=3D61000 text= =3D1000 data=3D5f000 org=3D200000
> > entry=3D200000
> > > > >>>> =3D=3D=3D> stand/i386/pxeldr (all)<= br> > > > > >>>> -560 bytes available
> > > > >>>> *** Error code 1
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> What all do you have enabled? The defaults= aren't even close to
> > running out
> > > > >>> of space (though I've not looked at th= is).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hey Warner,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks for reaching out! I've uploaded `ma= ke showconfig` here:
> > > > >> https://harden= edbsd.org/~shawn/2026-03-17_srcconf-r01.txt
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The following options are specific to Hardened= BSD (in no particular
> > > > >> order):
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. MK_HBSD_UPDATE
> > > > >> 2. MK_HBSDCONTROL
> > > > >> 3. MK_PIE
> > > > >> 4. MK_RELRO
> > > > >> 5. MK_SHLIBRANDOM
> > > > >> 6. MK_ZERO_REGS
> > > > >> 7. MK_SPECTREV1_FIX
> > > > >> 8. MK_SAFESTACK
> > > > >> 9. MK_RETPOLINE
> > > > >> 10. MK_LTOLIB
> > > > >> 11. MK_CFI
> > > > >
> > > > > MK_RETPOLINE was the culprit. Something about this= ZFS commit causes
> > > > > LLVM to emit more retpoline entries than before--t= oo many for a
> > little
> > > > > bootloader. That might be something to investigate= later, but only to
> > > > > satisfy a curious mind, not to actuall fix anythin= g (since nothing's
> > > > > actually broken.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Since it doesn't really make sense to apply sp= eculative execution
> > > > > mitigations to a bootloader, I disabled retpoline = for a components
> > > > > in stand/.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good to go.
> > > > >
> > > > Also just got bit by this, albeit during the lua loader= , since I have
> > > > WITH_RETPOLINE in my src.conf.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I do not have WITH_RETPOLINE in my /etc/src.conf, but since = I got this
> > mysterious error about
> > > not enough bytes left, I use WITHOUT_LOADER_PXEBOOT=3D YES (= due to issues
> > with WITH_BEARSSL=3DYES
> > > also used).
> > > Despite not using any WITH_RETPOLINE I also catch the error = ...
> >
> > Something about this ZFS commit causes the boot laoder to be too = big.
> > I guess the first sign of trouble was with retpolines, but there = seem
> > to now be additional signs.
> >
> > What's the process for filing a bug report against OpenzFS fo= r
> > something like this? (Not asking you directly, just a general que= stion
> > for the thread.)
> >
>
> That's a good question. We are rapidly aporoaching the day we will= have to
> freeze the set of zfs feature that we can boot with the BIOS path. The= re's
> only so much space.
>
> Right now,=C2=A0 there's little to no bootloader testing, let alon= e analysis
> done and that will need to change.

Another question might also be: is it worth the time and effort? Are
people really using a ZFS-enabled traditional MBR BIOS bootloader on
FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (or eventual 16.0-RELEASE)? From my rather naive
(and ignorant, since I don't know FreeBSD's userbase well), it seem= s
like folks use either loader.efi or u-boot (or both!)
=
Nobody uses MBR BIOS bootloader. It's totally unsupporte= d. They all use the
GPT one, which is used for all kinds of thing= s, most recently several light-weight
VM systems that don't h= ave UEFI. BIOS is what imposes the limit, not MBR.

But there's a huge number of systems that are already in the field tha= t need
to be upgradeable, but we will eventually need to draw a l= ine in the sand for
that.
=C2=A0
Not a question I can answer, of course, because everyone likely has a
different take on what "worth the time and effort" means to them.= :-)

Yea, the BIOS path is stubbornly h= anging around.

Warner
=C2=A0
Thanks,

--
Shawn Webb
Cofounder / Security Engineer
HardenedBSD

Signal Username:=C2=A0 shawn_webb.74
Tor-ified Signal: +1 303-901-1600 / shawn_webb_opsec.50
https://git.hardenedbsd.org/hardenedbsd/pubkeys/-/raw/m= aster/Shawn_Webb/03A4CBEBB82EA5A67D9F3853FF2E67A277F8E1FA.pub.asc
--0000000000008756d0064d8a7b4d--