From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 21:42:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D228914CEE for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:42:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA29105; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:42:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:42:20 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , wes@softweyr.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:07 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: > > - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD It has. Unequivocally. Oh, a few people have found it useful as a stopgap, but it is the ultimate reason for developers NEVER to target the platform and is thus horribly and irreparably destructive. Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a more popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence don't you understand? > - that the ports tree should support every version of FreeBSD Not what I advocated. I noted that ports for 2.2.8-RELEASE were no longer being maintained less than two months after it shipped. What I advocated was that the ports tree support a release for at least 6 months after it shipped. Otherwise, every release is automatically an "orphan." This is unprofessional AND bad PR-wise. WHATEVER has to be done to prevent that should be done. Period. Take your choice of technical approaches. > - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes > that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD > >You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my >recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. Bull. Terry Lambert has also supported this idea, and I've seen messages from one or two other folks that were at least somewhat supportive. But, of course, the naysayers are more vocal, because it's easier to advocate doing nothing than to help change things for the better. And a lot of folks walk away if support for an idea isn't unanimous, or nearly so. > Sure it'd be >nice if every app was built to run natively on FreeBSD, but it's not >reality nor is that likely to change just because an emulator exists. It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. >Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they >have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a huge blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD and FreeBSD wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be deprecated. >The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed >have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), Bull. However, it's a well-known online phenomenon that once the flamers (such as yourself) get going, those in support of an idea tend to be dissuaded from voicing their support because they don't want to be flamed. Or, again, they change their minds when they see that support for the idea isn't unanimous, or because an "opinion leader" (such as Jordan) has said something against it. >As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. And I may never attempt it. You are very quickly convincing me that my efforts will be unwelcome or unappreciated. >Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen >from you is grandiose ideas Not "grandiose" -- however, they do require a team of people to do. That's why I've posted messages asking for support. By not only refusing to support them but attempting to shoot them down, you are telling me -- on behalf of the Cabal of FreeBSD Insiders -- that there's no point in attempting to work on advocacy or even contributing code. Fine. Then I won't. You can have your status quo and your failing efforts at PR. I'll stick with the local users' group and will probably finish the NIC driver I've been working on, but don't expect more from me, since it's clearly unwelcome. Brett, Jordan, Wes: you've just alienated a contributor who's already done a lot of advocacy and wanted to do more -- plus a bunch of coding besides. I hope you're proud. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message