From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Wed Sep 20 01:33:23 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DCBE14C72 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:33:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x230.google.com (mail-io0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAECD75547 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x230.google.com with SMTP id i197so2719847ioe.9 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 18:33:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=m3jSpyod2S3pItaE8sfOMTO38ckfCanz9XyRVERRtpA=; b=Ac0tsuDN0OIVaRnkgL/xep4ycsX+P5NLWmrA7sX484F76wplHVHI2bflyJgshJU74X mUNtIYL2XyC2bOOnVYz/IvjZCFUogoGM9rj9SUtIA9i/z8xeSq5uUl3XbBhanC1Y+eSx K7W+QIfaTQ2HCuxybcofHYQQS122QXICD/SllR9j2nNtv8bptqRmI1uziqf0RAqqiOZg PsOO45/2unQvG1FGvyE/JJYYPjw+2hbc/I/428jawxh+zVCwE8GItfIVGTFiUBukb8J3 eP15yVrYGIrB/OVR8E0jHuqsQABnKbWjOCW9JP3YoeVTrxMBdEZL+K7G6i49YOn62Gix 27Lw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m3jSpyod2S3pItaE8sfOMTO38ckfCanz9XyRVERRtpA=; b=uHEHOTeFgLJg0JT7vXsAkFurJ+XJbqZiZwgji4TyaIRy4yJZr7a2+KJRJ/ebeR1KRL MEuvhNeZPQINpKyRXChwTKceUOFhp8MlX1nWQkjUxl6R3mqq+wAcuoC3yHyxxcsrgmuG ljeLosoBp50DFQPXZ9FyCC5by12hcIMjyPi8ZzMguDjV8dN0ajxBKaa6LUksEfqg0tXZ pOIgigd5KxV3kSYm6XTlyOeyV1AlZjbuuPmM0UdE7uG1d5v/3TxGVp5j/L6naTj963Jc rGNQaQ/8GZsNreeKKAYBlmy1L5+JOeHeamD30af0sZu6HS6RK7VT9LKeNFnRj5up1rcg oGGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUjnq8CDq05K6THuPevMY4bYno+S6vi8EwxA1W74SSnJClGMCPwP Bi9tWJzWSDb3bLjK6s03ug7z1Elm+ov1CQdIvfiJ7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCMAKyo+ef7Jj50jOguMIVysFym53wJonQFDoL0Q7h4D619Mi0IhGT3QylQ8jgWl1IDBqgwgDRuasPBBbEKi/8= X-Received: by 10.107.7.161 with SMTP id g33mr4355124ioi.169.1505871202083; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 18:33:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.2.194 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [65.151.16.248] Received: by 10.79.2.194 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1b07bf49-508a-c6b4-e805-df7d43230f81@ish.com.au> <20170919081532.GB2170@home.opsec.eu> <21c1d954-8bdf-0d16-f1ca-176cd6df7a60@ish.com.au> <423b38b0-18d8-4252-d2b8-f25f2141e3bb@ish.com.au> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:33:20 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Lm7agWGN9KpFT33qsl08zZIU7ag Message-ID: Subject: Re: ABI changes within stable branch To: Aristedes Maniatis Cc: Matthew Seaman , Kurt Jaeger , "Patrick M. Hausen" , freebsd-stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:33:23 -0000 On Sep 19, 2017 6:05 PM, "Aristedes Maniatis" wrote: Matthew Seaman wrote: > > Ports are still being built according to the same policy -- on the > earliest still-supported release of each major branch. > > It's just that now, for 11.x and subsequent, 11.0 goes out of support a > month or so after 11.1-RELEASE comes out. You're meant to have upgraded > by now. The 11.0 -> 11.1 upgrade is intended to be a pretty routine > thing that you can do about as freely as you can apply a security patch > or other update within the 11.0 series. I'm afraid this hasn't made things clearer for me at all. 1. What does the "stable" branch mean if the ABI is no longer stable FreeBSD has always had a policy of backwards compatibility. By that definition we are stable. What we don't promise is full forwards compatibility, which is what you are asking for. 2. This policy of changing the ABI means that upgrading from 11.0 to 11.1 is now less routine than it used to be in the old days. Each minor update is more like the effort involved in upgrading 10 -> 11. So I'll be doing it less often, not more often. How so? All the old binaries work. It's running new binaries on old systems that's a problem. 3. Packages are located in a namespace like this: https://pkg.freebsd.org/ freebsd:11:x86:64 But now I don't know which release this is actually pointing to or which packages will work. 4. /etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf points to url: "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ ABI}/quarterly" However this is now wrong. If I am delayed in upgrading my system, downloading packages from there will sometimes break things. And I will not know until runtime. 5. The package MANIFEST contains information about system compatibility. That is just the major version, but we need the minor release version now too. Here are some possible solutions from where I'm sitting on the edges: a. Go back to 'stable' meaning the ABI doesn't change. Not just the kernel, but the whole OS. The definition hasn't changed in a decade. b. Since there is no different in breakage and effort when going from 11.0 -> 11.1 or when going from 11.0 -> 12.0, just get rid of the point releases entirely. Then the existing packaging system still works. c. Add point releases to the package manifest. We've have something like https://pkg.freebsd.org/freebsd:11.0:x86:64 d. Wait for some new base packaging magic to solve things. Have I summarised this effectively? Apart from the whole forwards backwards thing, which is sadly critical... Warner Ari -- --------------------------> Aristedes Maniatis CEO, ish https://www.ish.com.au GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A _______________________________________________ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"