From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 19:09:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8C51497BBE for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:09:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CCF8AB89; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06J9x2C055764 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06J9sRb055761; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:54 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Alan Somers cc: Wojciech Puchar , Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C7CCF8AB89 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.959,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.40), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.70), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:09:56 -0000 >> why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without >> dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on >> different user accounts? > > Several reasons: > 1) Separate accounts don't provide as much security as separate > containers. Capsicum does, but people aren't used to using Capsicum I use separate processes and don't feel the lack of security. I don't use capsicum too. Could you explain it more precisely why standard process and user/group separation is insufficient? Simply access rights and setting security.bsd.see_other_uids=0 is enough for me. If something could be added then it would be limiting what ports can each user open. But it's not really a problem. > 2) Fragmentation. The Linux world is much more fragmented than the > FreeBSD world. It's hard to write a program that will work correctly That's what i agree with you. Anyway if these microservices would be statically linked this argument would be irrevelant. And from what i've read it's how microservices should be made. > 3) Fashion. You may not care about the latest IT craze, but a lot of > IT departments do. And you can't change their minds all by yourself. I don't even try to change their minds. I don't discuss with such people. You can discuss and present arguments to people that don't think. > If FreeBSD is to be used by people who deploy microservices, then it > needs to do what they want. That means it needs Docker or something > similar (IT admins won't want to learn ezjail if they're already > comfortable with Docker), or we need to convince people to use > CloudABI. CloudABI has the potential to outperform containers. It > just hasn't gained traction yet. > -Alan Docker is already in ports. If someone want to use it - what a problem? Anyway if they prefer linux let they use linux.