From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  1 08:12:16 1997
Return-Path: <owner-hackers>
Received: (from root@localhost)
          by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA28213
          for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:12:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34])
          by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28207
          for <hackers@freebsd.org>; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:12:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp
	(Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vqi2y-000QbZC; Sat, 1 Feb 97 17:12 MET
Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) 
       id QAA19237; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:56:10 +0100 (MET)
From: grog@lemis.de
Message-Id: <199702011556.QAA19237@freebie.lemis.de>
Subject: Re: bisdn
In-Reply-To: <199702011424.PAA00225@plm.xs4all.nl> from Peter Mutsaers at "Feb 1, 97 03:24:13 pm"
To: plm@xs4all.nl (Peter Mutsaers)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:56:10 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers)
Organisation: 	LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany
Phone: +49-6637-919123
Fax: +49-6637-919122
Reply-to: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey)
WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Peter Mutsaers writes:
>>>  On Sat, 1 Feb 1997 14:15:05 +0100 (MET), Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.de> said:
>
>     GL> Peter Mutsaers writes:
>>>>  On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:42:04 +0100 (MET), Greg Lehey
>>>>  <grog@lemis.de> said:
>>>
>     GL> Well, to be fair, Gary Jennejohn replied and told me that this
>     GL> related to ppp, which I don't use.  I think the problem there
>     GL> is that not many people use ppp over here, so it's not
>     GL> surprising that it's taking a long time.
>>>
>>>  Yes, that is the problem for most people. I'm surprised that you don't
>>>  use PPP! Here all ISP's offer ISDN access only through syncPPP. I
>>>  can't even think of another way. If you don't use PPP, then how do you
>>>  get TCP/IP over ISDN?
>
>     GL> Why should you need ppp to run IP?  None of the high-speed lines do.
>     GL> They run a straight layer 2 protocol--HDLC, in the case of ISDN over
>     GL> here.  ppp just adds encapsulation overhead.
>
> Indeed, but in practice, every home user who connects to an ISP needs PPP.
> There aren't many that can afford dedicated links.

Agreed, but there's no connection between the two matters.

> At least I don't know of any ISP's that offer other ways for
> TCP/IP connection.

There aren't too many in the USA.  That doesn't mean that there
shouldn't be.  I believe most ISDN routers can be set up to run
without PPP.  Certainly the ISPs over here, nearly all of who offer
transparent HDLC, use the same routers as are used in the USA.

Greg