From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Oct 9 23:20:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B06FE3ECCE for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 23:20:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F2F84A44 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 23:20:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3FAFBE3ECCD; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 23:20:06 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F44BE3ECCB; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 23:20:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [96.47.65.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B6B484A41; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 23:20:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from ralph.baldwin.cx (c-73-231-226-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.231.226.104]) by mail.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20F9810A8C0; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: Warner Losh , Ian Lepore , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Dimitry Andric Subject: Re: deorbiting /usr/lib/libstand.a, moving to sysboot Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2017 16:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: <1838629.1fOj0Hxk8Q@ralph.baldwin.cx> User-Agent: KMail/4.14.10 (FreeBSD/11.1-STABLE; KDE/4.14.30; amd64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: <1507565759.77958.7.camel@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.baldwin.cx); Mon, 09 Oct 2017 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2017 23:20:06 -0000 On Monday, October 09, 2017 10:21:53 AM Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Ian Lepore wrote: > > > On Mon, 2017-10-09 at 10:09 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2017-10-09 at 17:57 +0200, Dimitry Andric wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 9 Oct 2017, at 07:45, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to deorbit /usr/lib/stand.a and /usr/include/stand.h. > > These > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really parts of the boot loader with an unstable API and shouldn't > > be > > > > > > installed into the system. It's really a private library to the > > boot > > > > loader. > > > > > > > > > > Though I completely agree with this, I am still interested in the > > > > > historical reasons for separating out this library for general > > userland > > > > > consumption. Were there any other parts of world that happened to > > use > > > > > libstand? > > > > > > > > > > -Dimitry > > > > > > > > > There are out-of-tree users of libstand. Perhaps not many, but a > > > > couple times after doing something to libstand I've received emails > > > > from people that thanked me for the enhancement and mentioned some non- > > > > loader(8) use of the lib in passing. (Unfortunately, I can't find any > > > > of those mails now, they were from 2-3 years ago.) > > > > > > > They can email me and I'll help them convert over... :) > > > > > > Warner > > > > Actually, I got distracted, then came back and hit Send too soon. I > > meant to ask "Will the library still be accessible to out of tree > > users?", so that adjusting to the change will amount to fixing some > > build breakage to adjust to a new location? > > > > The proposal is to take it 100% internal and officially not support its use > outside the loader. > > It's open source, so if you really want to use it, you can with some > effort. If there's one or two people, they can adjust. If there's lots, > then I can revisit the proposal. It would help to know who they were and > what, exactly, they used it for. Note that one wrinkle is that libstand pulls in source bits from libc. Historically it's been possible to checkout just sys/ and build sys/boot if you had a matching world because libstand would be installed. This will now require a full world checkout. That's probably not the end of the world (and it is debatable if 'boot' even belongs in sys/ vs being a separate top-level dir in the source tree). In general we try to make sys/ (for the kernel) be self-contained and this would kind of break that, though I think I'd be happy moving boot out of sys/ altogether to restore that convention. -- John Baldwin