From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 06:55:42 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871C1A2B88C for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) Received: from barracuda.ixsystems.com (mail.ixsystems.com [69.198.165.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.ixsystems.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DEAC118E for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1447224940-08ca040e8524e920001-RYubVt Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by barracuda.ixsystems.com with ESMTP id phvaTssl2Ia7gcah (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:40 -0800 (PST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com X-Barracuda-RBL-Trusted-Forwarder: 10.2.55.1 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from [10.8.0.30] (unknown [10.8.0.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75D0AA01D1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:39 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3108\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Jordan Hubbard X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:38 -0800 Cc: Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , Sean Bruno , sparc64@freebsd.org, Marius Strobl Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3108) X-Barracuda-Connect: UNKNOWN[10.2.55.1] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1447224940 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.2.0.41:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at ixsystems.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 -0000 > On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't > work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it = makes > sprac64 more viable, then so much the better.=20 Hi Warner, I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=E2=80=99re having so = much fun discussing it from an architectural perspective, but=E2=80=A6 What=E2=80=99s the actual goal (from a future market relevance = perspective) of putting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think = that=E2=80=99s the key question that needs to get asked and answered = here since we all know that: 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =E2=80=9Cx8= 6 alternative architectures=E2=80=9D just because they existed and might = be technically interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user = community numbers to justify the time and energy expended for the = project as a whole (and even in an all-volunteer driven project, there = is simply no such thing as =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D - everything has a = cost somewhere). As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to = this rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD = and we knew it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it = also fell off the support roadmap and into the history books once = ALPHA=E2=80=99s market relevance had clearly ended. NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, = because their slogan is =E2=80=9COf course it runs NetBSD.=E2=80=9D = Again, FreeBSD !=3D NetBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always = has been a key differentiator for FreeBSD and part of both its own = slogans and mission statement. 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle = purchased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant = players in that market. Sure, putting =E2=80=9Cold equipment to work=E2=80= =9D is also always a tempting objective, but it=E2=80=99s one that = really requires viewing through an objective lens since the perspective = of someone who owns said "old equipment" is rather more biased than the = perspective of the market as a whole. The market as a whole appears to = consist (in terms of global server market share): HP (x64) 27.6% IBM (x64) 22.9% DELL (x64) 16.4% All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and = Huawei) Total: 90.9% [ Source: Gartner ] That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes = Itanium, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that = even amongst that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future = since their overall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which = begs the question: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while = Oracle themselves are shifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for = which FreeBSD is already competitive, or is it really just trying to = keep some older collection of increasingly power/performance inefficient = (by comparison) alive? Again, what=E2=80=99s the long-term goal of supporting this = architecture? The old adage about =E2=80=9Cpicking your battles=E2=80=9D = applies here, no matter how enthusiastic the small community of = remaining SPARC users might be, which is why I am risking lightning = bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to ask the question. = :-) Thanks, - Jordan