From nobody Sun Jan 22 06:36:27 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4P03RX30Bkz2v3TK for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:36:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pprocacci@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa1-x2f.google.com (mail-oa1-x2f.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4P03RX170Rz4HFv; Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:36:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pprocacci@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-oa1-x2f.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-12c8312131fso10879843fac.4; Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:36:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gD2T0wisO1l10/nImc8Y4+o6FbYB0WjSZWaM2EyaUwg=; b=MzdpkNSIEJHfYzc0E4+SnvX8YA2+lqV2ua0mZ5xr63+RIv3Vhyt9GCBRdjcU+rDaUB 1gTv2zDgiFMmgck8gZkptKbbBmC3Z10R93cXn/KZ8u6zHVrmut8o/q2lQhRZ4d1iiQeW +yaiR+wGgsqIbE29BzT34S2qC8S1LR/dFWsw4tQCxIxjxkKlBm5AbDg+53k6UW4msYED ogKiH4TDWvPE+TXwO9s0VSxR8abKOG4F0+Bk0V4F3xHbyeJh0S4uZarlYN0xPSCfJ9Ev joyfeXscykELkGRcScmIDDPW8Uga+SfmyCF3Ou6W5mbjamRhtUJTJEC2QhxtRUm+Ee54 cw1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=gD2T0wisO1l10/nImc8Y4+o6FbYB0WjSZWaM2EyaUwg=; b=utRNpi12jyAqpaMtHnc24e/hU4VyKnS93DfoPWTR+Gmb7U3BaenhRPQZiMLeQ0KGdg qv9VT0puPUE19s5OguVAE7zIYtjXnHem6WKyRS+nZw6J8KCk7KqbilnSNMAHyLI1UXbD 7NAsZDxzudQB3ju7o7ZT/R+pVkBZK30DTltmpkTSI/PX8dcUnbvQ7soTRw+ep/hZK7Kd bum87fdDLGwdQeOpQONgb7mNZGXaF1gB5ZfyS8qXJvh2Zsus/Gys4d6rmqIFCKlr2Kgq +9Uic1gN70gVGLs158cKfrBA3q7i8zdVsWYvpIAh4pgGUg8h3fHR434uCncqbGlqa4J9 V59g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krZ0/6AQ3+oUVtcD6kg/NxGBz/rgYetvGm7xcaG6sCiQ9IHqnQu QtG5grj64+QEzJnqIXLEQ/tF0ql5tG6G54SVoEhr1h/1ciId X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtJHCY2UXOUYy/+zvJVgTPI9SYqrif9QY5duFb+xfQ5x9xhemlOgUAU9/XM39sOAOlgDyjAjOJ9Jp73q3XrlDA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:6714:b0:143:eb1d:8894 with SMTP id gb20-20020a056870671400b00143eb1d8894mr1067038oab.225.1674369398573; Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:36:38 -0800 (PST) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1889CB4C-4B11-4178-8446-97DA9E5EC35A@nimnet.asn.au> <20230122060127.GB8068@eureka.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20230122060127.GB8068@eureka.lemis.com> From: Paul Procacci Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 01:36:27 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Out of order posting (was:: Load 0.20 on a freshly installed idle system) To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Ian Smith , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003991b905f2d481d3" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4P03RX170Rz4HFv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2001:4860:4864::/48, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000003991b905f2d481d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your insight. Here's the fact of the matter. Unless I'm using an email client where I can move a cursor to the position needed to tip me off what kind of posting is required for said email (like Mutt), then the steps necessary to conform to various `rules' on various forms/lists/work emails/etc is simply too much work. Also a fact: not once has anyone complained to me about top posting until now. Also a fact: I was asked not to bottom post elsewhere albeit quite a long time ago. I'm not an advocate of either method, just don't have the time to conform. Not only do I use gmail as is evident by this email, but I use other email clients as well. All their defaults are top posting oriented. This is what led me to state to either ignore my messages or block me. I certainly won't be offended and have better things to worry about other than posting methodology on various lists. ~Paul On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 1:01 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > [message rearranged and trimmed for compliance and legibility] > > On Saturday, 21 January 2023 at 1:38:12 -0500, Paul Procacci wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 11:44 PM Ian Smith wrote= : > >> > >> PS Also bugging me is dreadful endless top-posting, tail-quoting > Microsoft > >> corporate-email-style mess. > > > > Sorry but blame google and/or gmail for the top posting. > > Why? Have you not read their instructions? At > https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9283192 under "Have better > email conversations", there's the item "Reply inline to email". That > seems to be exactly what we're asking for. > > > I use whatever their defaults are and that's not going to change > > unless they change it. > > You can put your answer wherever you want, though they may not make it > easy. But it's your choice to use Gmail. I'd suggest to put your > answers: > > * Where it matches what you're answering. > * Where it matches the project guidelines. > > Where are the project guidelines? Currently there's > https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/freebsd-questions/, which contains: > > Include relevant text from the original message. Trim it to the > minimum, but do not overdo it. It should still be possible for > somebody who did not read the original message to understand what > you are talking about. > > Use some technique to identify which text came from the original > message, and which text you add. I personally find that prepending > =E2=80=9C>=E2=80=9D to the original message works best. Leaving white s= pace after > the =E2=80=9C> ;=E2=80=9D and leave empty lines between your text and t= he original > text both make the result more readable. > > Put your response in the correct place (after the text to which it > replies). It is very difficult to read a thread of responses where > each reply comes before the text to which it replies. > > > RFC's surrounding usenet described this in pretty clear detail. (Just > > looked it up: 1855). > > Thanks for the link, though I don't see anything that relates to the > current discussion. About the only thing of relevance I see is: > > do not include the entire original! > > > At this point in my life all I would suggest to you is to either > > suck it up or ban/ignore the messages from senders you don't want to > > see. Mine included. > > This would be a rather drastic approach. Discussion is better. > > > I found this to be a better approach than attempting to correct > > people on what is the proper `netiquette'. > > Whatever you want, of course. But if you're prepared to accept a > supposed mandate by Gmail, I wonder how objective you're being. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > --=20 __________________ :(){ :|:& };: --0000000000003991b905f2d481d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for your insight.=C2=A0 Here's the fact of= the matter.
Unless I'm using an email client where I can mov= e a cursor to the position needed to tip me off what kind of posting is req= uired for said email (like Mutt), then the steps necessary to conform to va= rious `rules'=C2=A0 on various forms/lists/work emails/etc is simply to= o much work.
Also a fact: not once has anyone complained to m= e about top posting until now.
Also a fact: I was asked not t= o bottom post elsewhere albeit quite a long time ago.
I'm not = an advocate of either method, just don't have the time to conform.=C2= =A0 Not only do I use gmail as is evident by this email, but I use other em= ail clients as well.=C2=A0 All their defaults are top posting oriented.
=
This is what led me to state to either ignore my messages or block me.= =C2=A0 I certainly won't be offended and have better things to worry ab= out other than posting methodology on various lists.
~Paul

=C2=A0
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 1= :01 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org> wrote:
[message rearranged and trimmed for compl= iance and legibility]

On Saturday, 21 January 2023 at=C2=A0 1:38:12 -0500, Paul Procacci wrote: > On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 11:44 PM Ian Smith <smithi@nimnet.asn.au> wrote:
>>
>> PS Also bugging me is dreadful endless top-posting, tail-quoting M= icrosoft
>> corporate-email-style mess.
>
> Sorry but blame google and/or gmail for the top posting.

Why?=C2=A0 Have you not read their instructions?=C2=A0 At
https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9283192 under "Have better
email conversations", there's the item "Reply inline to email= ".=C2=A0 That
seems to be exactly what we're asking for.

> I use whatever their defaults are and that's not going to change > unless they change it.

You can put your answer wherever you want, though they may not make it
easy.=C2=A0 But it's your choice to use Gmail.=C2=A0 I'd suggest to= put your
answers:

* Where it matches what you're answering.
* Where it matches the project guidelines.

Where are the project guidelines?=C2=A0 Currently there's
https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/freebsd-= questions/, which contains:

=C2=A0 Include relevant text from the original message. Trim it to the
=C2=A0 minimum, but do not overdo it. It should still be possible for
=C2=A0 somebody who did not read the original message to understand what =C2=A0 you are talking about.

=C2=A0 Use some technique to identify which text came from the original
=C2=A0 message, and which text you add. I personally find that prepending =C2=A0 =E2=80=9C>=E2=80=9D to the original message works best. Leaving w= hite space after
=C2=A0 the =E2=80=9C> ;=E2=80=9D and leave empty lines between your text= and the original
=C2=A0 text both make the result more readable.

=C2=A0 Put your response in the correct place (after the text to which it =C2=A0 replies). It is very difficult to read a thread of responses where =C2=A0 each reply comes before the text to which it replies.

> RFC's surrounding usenet described this in pretty clear detail.=C2= =A0 (Just
> looked it up: 1855).

Thanks for the link, though I don't see anything that relates to the current discussion.=C2=A0 About the only thing of relevance I see is:

=C2=A0 do not include the entire original!

> At this point in my life all I would suggest to you is to either
> suck it up or ban/ignore the messages from senders you don't want = to
> see.=C2=A0 Mine included.

This would be a rather drastic approach.=C2=A0 Discussion is better.

> I found this to be a better approach than attempting to correct
> people on what is the proper `netiquette'.

Whatever you want, of course.=C2=A0 But if you're prepared to accept a<= br> supposed mandate by Gmail, I wonder how objective you're being.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.=C2=A0 If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php


--
__________= ________

:(){ :|:& };:
--0000000000003991b905f2d481d3--