From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:20:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8594B37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB8C43FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0526.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.16] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192c9x-0005LJ-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3E91CB82.6C168E0F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:03:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a440a141b729d935a80aeeb9890e2ea655a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:20:07 -0000 "Gregory A. Gilliss" wrote: > My initial post (the article being debated) was *not* about the following: > Desktops > GUIs or X or window managers > Anything else other than - good tools require no instruction Most of the issues raised in this thread are usability issues having to do with the install path. I would argue that these *are* specifically on point. The complaint about "configuring X11" speaks *directly* to the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #1: It must have a GUI for installing and configuring the system". Note that Windows avoids, rather than complies, with this one, since it comes preinstalled. > The point - the reason that I thought that this article has value - > is that the FreeBSD community doesn't - dare I say it - pander - to > the user community. We act like the intelligencia of *NIX - > AND IT IS COSTING US THE USER BASE. This is really off-point. It's not really possible to please the user community, for something like a Winmodem, with a proprietary software CODEC that is normally bulk-licensed by a hardware vendor, and for which there is no such thing as an "Open Source" or "royalty free" or "manufacturer prepaid royalty" for a FreeBSD or Linux driver. This speaks directly to the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #2". Windows complies with this because the royaltie are built into the hardware costs, even when you don't get the license for the OS you are intending to use. > Good tools require no instruction. That was the point, not the rest of > this didactic cruft. "Good tools" require no installation, eause they come preinstalled by the hardware vendor. You need to seperate the idea of installation and configuration from that of day-to-day post installation operation in a factory supplied configuration. > Who among you ever read the instructions for a phone (not a cordless multi- > frequency-answering-machine-GPS-breathalyzer phone, but the unbox-it-plug- > it-in-listen-for-dial-tone phone? Most $5 telephones have autodialer features which require some non-obvious configuration, usually involving waving a dead chicken over the "#" key or something similar. Telephones are a bad example of good usabilitym unless you are specifically talking about the road-side assitance "telephones" which have a single "technology, fulfill your function" button. Preinstalled Windows systems on computers either boot directly into a desktop, or they boot directly to a login that goes into desktop after a username and password. Generally, if you "just hit return" the first login, it quits offering you the login interface. Unless and until you get a UNIX desktop to that point, you are comparing installation and configuration and day to day use, as a big lump, of the UNIX system, with day to day use of the Windows system. That's really an apples/oranges comparison. I'll note that the author failed to compare MacOS X to Windows, nor did the author compare a preinstalled "Lindws" system to Windows. > Or a hammer? Hammers are simple tools. Other than "tack hammers", which have magnets embeeded in one end to "start" the tack (and *do* have instructions: "Only use the magnet part for the initial hit of the tack, to avoid damaging the magnet"), instructions are not really necessary. Computers, on the other hand, are exctremely complex. A first time computer user is likely to mistake the operation of the mouse. > When FreeBSD can, out of the box, be a tool that clueless newbies > (and we were *all* clueless newbies once) can install and configure > on their own (just like - bleh - Windows), then we can all sit back > and be arrogant (again - but not until then). Which is, again, missing the point: the reason you care about installation is because it's not preinstalled on the computers you buy. The reason you care about configuration is because there is no accepted default. Most people do not "configure" their Windows systems; nor do they "install" Windows themselves. You are comparing the incomparable, and then wondering why one compares badly with the other. Note: the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #6", that the system accomodate leaving Windows installed, and providing a dual boot for the competing stem damages initial usability; even if we are talking about "Partition Magc" and "Boot Magic", there is not an easy way to do this automatically; it certainly can't be done without a royalty cost that isn't there for Windows. Better to overwrite Windows completely. -- Terry