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[72.200.195.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rg10sm11283645obc.14.2012.09.17.10.06.29 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:06:26 -0500 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.3) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmNl/U+US/pkV8fPHH2RgdWTCtGQp5i9J50o+0gZj/k2P3ybWmGtwcxz+wCRtGnoyT8Fwk/ Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:06:31 -0000 On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 Zhihao Yuan wrote: > GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not > usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So > far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is > already nonsense. As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") environment. > And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many > things can't be done with a single WM. You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based systems manager. Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common definitions. Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org