From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 28 17:54:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08133 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08036; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-83.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.211]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA01095; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA01166; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:54:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980629005417.ZM1165@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 00:54:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)" (Jun 29, 9:16am) References: <199806281732.KAA15832@hub.freebsd.org> <19980629091624.M28872@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 29, 9:16am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) > On Sunday, 28 June 1998 at 15:27:43 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > >> ownership of small arms is insufficient for the task. > >> if one embraces the purpose of the second amendment, rather > >> then just the language, we must allow the citizentry to own > >> heavy weapons. no one that i know of advocates this. > > > > I feel that a rag tag militia that has heart and the support of the > > population is incredibly difficult to defeat. I have heard commanders of > > the South East Asian theater make this statement. > > Which country are you thinking of? > > > I feel that an auto loading rifle is sufficient for the purpose of > > opposing tyranny. This is a personal opinion. > > It may make a token gesture. It won't help if they're about to run > over you with a tank. On the other hand, it can be quite useful for > killing individuals, innocent or otherwise. > > >> what would it have availed the chinese students to have > >> small arms in tianamen (sp) square. it would not have > >> forestalled action by the gov't. > > > > No it would not have forstalled the government. Here I will avoid > > discussion (I am a proponent) of civil disobedience as an instrument of > > power. Still, if the citizens of the nation of China were given the > > weapons that the only the civilians of the US owns, there would be a shift > > in power. > > Indeed. There would probably have been a civil war. I might add a very short civil war. There is no way that an armed mass of civilains can effectively fight a well equiped, trained, and displined army such as China has. The slaughter would have been worse. > > China's government is repressive, shuns western-style human rights, > and ended the Tiananmen square problem in a bloody manner. Before > condemning them completely, look at how democracy and human rates > score in other countries: > > 1. In many US cities, the crime rate is so high that you really > *wouldn't* go walking alone at night. You can walk at night in > any part of Beijing, despite the higher differences in income and > living standards. The Chinese might see this as a result of > overly lax treatment of criminals, or, as the Americans call it, > "human rights". > > 2. India is in complete political and economic chaos, the result of > 50 years of "democracy" in a country which can't handle it. The > average tenure of an Indian government is less than 12 months. In > view of the level-headed government they're currently getting, > let's hope that this remains true. > > 3. Russia is in turmoil. The government is no longer in control, and > crime is rife. > > On the whole, if I had the choice of living only in one of the four > locations above, I'd choose Beijing. > > The Chinese government consists of people elected by a small body for > their merits, not their ability to campaign. Generally, they're no > fools. China may be lagging behind the West in many areas, but > they're slowly and steadily improving, and they're doing it without > significant incidences of the problems other countries face. > Considering the enormous problems facing them, I think they're doing > as good a job as anybody could expect. I will add just one more think to a well thought out answer. They will probably, over time, become the dominant economic and military power. They are taking a gradual, controlled shift to Capitalism. They also have a more favorable infrustructure than that of Russia to make that shift. Frank > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message