From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 17:57:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398EC340FD0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k7jw0MMNz3ZgT for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N7iT4-1intzP21b8-014gZw; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:57:53 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:57:53 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Evilham Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-Id: <20200612195753.74c342b8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aR0vKZZMUSA/fUw66NDnPO6WelT1VnAehe50VCVymes5EgQFt5A UaIKM7pnreHHcQ99i1izDeuYhcTIDuGdK/pxgj3LeatvG0HQhejXK8i/mFji3PTrgFNInXQ vU3ECnEwZZBLpQu6ulWKxBTRIc6K0SrYUUnDh91D5JN1v2tuJ41p+dIHKgnkFad9745yw9w SXcn36ETg1YABoC34dhtw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Jh8xxPcS0lM=:oNdHR2fgP12pjJAGRPqL4L NQDL2xktR0aClNkSWhT+9AtUzzHNU3JQF/aAs4I9Vjc/fSz0PzZap4+Vx09omg5nQzxLorJG1 DEZCFzAdmW7JmtFaj8e/N2wvLhBr2atAjXhqMTOPjC3BhOcxdQITDEXEUEaEXEwaw61raYLJe WDLLOqwSMZxVgdg+IAFF+FQorxVB4OpLrc12nZTxZNu5+j9NdKSKUnbUgYcM22+lzPcx8a0wW zwTx7euh+zBXJXQrRL//PkMT1YcH1P99dv1DaOO8GFLLOXIyMDIhVTN5gsJW72ojQvfBjBj9d shXwuPaaR4UPrKGT6x2PBFiVaYtEFoWxLUmJGt0scwbEIKwTPUnTVZe4ojUGNZnXInWhXv699 Uq8t3idwH4KLN/Jyzb3k3lRtd+gZ61AD/eDMWwdUkC79P6/Wy1ycz5O5BEwLuxvfoC9msT3UC dmb/b6TNsto7WPvB4uSkELBTJRAgZmy3DRMe4Lx9nVtn55JZ5imj5Fx/nPP+aagXv44XGowN2 x3W52+YwU5Zz+lGr4ayJ1OsRMrLdgA43QlKw+jMx2jB5vLdmfy87uIMDQaHcF45ee9TU/g+LA xTfy2nbJaXJMgrAHHfR3DWo8JDAK2+GO35Tt1RGQqa8iBEo2b7cNH8ccpHrBJR0jl34hcMpN6 oWkKrbdaeYqvqEdypNdS4fwA9H0Q4aTB3sEU97Lj5WP9TQ2wlhD+6fkng0BICpcSy/dwQWG4Q 33wFqF0iHphON5eIGN9++VJJhfj5grSVhxPiqgrhJC3+LnflVfc9vq35BiIKfJnfrlTnbSIN3 3/EMTSAdl0bDcdxYG0F/aXO6PovmmGcFcMM+YopUJs/vOAG40KO+bKXYaNlNcflLtdsYxgm X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k7jw0MMNz3ZgT X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.85 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.190]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.11)[0.111]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.527]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:57 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:16:55 +0200, Evilham wrote: > On dv., juny 12 2020, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > [...] > > 1. Why mailing lists? > > > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text > > messages > > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not > > possible > > in the long term. > > > Mailing lists are accessible if you use the right tools. I'd like to mention something very useful: When you use mailing lists with a MUA, you can store messages locally (using the MUA's "sorting tree" functions). Web resources sometimes disappear, and if you have kept a bookmark, it will lead to a 404 page, so it became useless; as mailing list messages are "place and content" in _one_ thing, you do not depend on any further tools. Depending on the storage format (mbox or MailDir), you can even use plain old grep to search for something specific. Your own messages will also automatically (!) be stored in "Sent messages" (or an equivalent thereof), so you can revisit what you wrote or what you replied to, at any time, without requiring an Internet connection. Sure, you can store web forum posts in plain text files too, but that has to be done manually, or "Save as..." with "as text" for the whole page, but what if there's pagination and you're on page 7 of 9... yes, it's not that concenient. > That being said: there are also support forums :-) if that fits > your workflow better, give it a go! That's true, FreeBSD offers them for many years. And there are web resources and a Wiki. I don't know if IRC is still a thing, though. :-) > > 3. Comfort and Openness > > > > FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, > > but > > what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a > > mess and > > asking for help a curse? > > > This shouldn't be the case, and if it is in your use-case, the > best way to keep that from happening is to document the issues and > raise awareness. > I expect e.g. CURRENT to be rough around the edges when it comes > to the ports tree, but it's not unbearable; and the quarterly > branch for RELEASE / STABLE shouldn't have these issues, the > latest branch can have some of those issues, but that's why it's > latest. OS version and ports snapshots can be used in any combination the user desires (with certain limitations of course, but generally it's possible to use today's ports tree with a RELEASE OS version, or the RELEASE ports tree with a CURRENT OS version - those are edge cases, just to illustrate the independence). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...