From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mon May 20 05:24:00 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DD115A22D8 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 05:23:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from kabab.cs.huji.ac.il (kabab.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.116.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E386D8CAF9 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 05:23:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.huji.ac.il; s=57791128; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=/iQx8ch1TquzH9lIQJQdB2x/P0eax2z1Maie9F6wPoI=; b=evGlG31LZirN+696Fho/Cr88CR3wCDGeOsA7gFciv1CFxv4QS9QikY5zrXEql29Rwy6qWMQpgZ53BnA/PgJ80AEZ/iucpfjrbYoq0HmAsZC3V3hahp6o9lObl6Yzu8CCGC3qihSDV62LjVxJkge3egyh9Aa2fj02CkcfzzVjeSUH98sk01t4NWXma///6M5IEfFXCvIw631ZlyAm+weoZds7F8GtHZwdhTTiDJ29hAtzntCQ5bI8IpnFkWVa+X0e13CbUvaUKZzLvnyZ8nvjX1z0SswTonXPYfhrLP42y235x+I36P8aU2RSu6wJp3ZGW1yYxs5amn0+de7g5JUkdw==; Received: from bach.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.20]) by kabab.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1hSalp-000Bol-I4; Mon, 20 May 2019 08:23:33 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts From: Daniel Braniss In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 08:23:33 +0300 Cc: Warner Losh , Graham Perrin , FreeBSD Current Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <00144DCD-7DB6-475A-9719-D5B714B84DC8@cs.huji.ac.il> References: <868svf6r05.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> To: Igor Mozolevsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E386D8CAF9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cs.huji.ac.il header.s=57791128 header.b=evGlG31L X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cs.huji.ac.il:s=57791128]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[huji.ac.il]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cs.huji.ac.il:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[kabab.cs.huji.ac.il,post.cs.huji.ac.il]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[210.116.65.132.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.892,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:378, ipnet:132.64.0.0/13, country:IL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.51)[ipnet: 132.64.0.0/13(-1.46), asn: 378(-1.16), country: IL(0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 05:24:00 -0000 BIKE SHED SYNDROME? danny PS: intentionally top posting :-) > On 19 May 2019, at 22:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > >>>> Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell >>>> fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. >>> >>> >>> >>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as >>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded >>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or >>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is >>> triggered by precisely the latter. >> >> >> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its >> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm >> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme >> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness >> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so >> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There >> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. > > It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you > encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is > extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure > whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along > the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... > Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and > came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise > it would not be "freedom." > > >> At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered >> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from >> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things >> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad >> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, >> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in >> the cases that require some action. > > > Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest > wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" > > > -- > Igor M. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"