From nobody Tue Sep 3 18:10:33 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wytw61B2Xz5ThtV for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 18:10:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wytw56Z3Gz4K2K for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2024 18:10:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2d5f5d8cc01so3841151a91.0 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1725387044; x=1725991844; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9GQ9sYmq23Z6/SHuDQn2u2tbIwbJeOXi5ZKWAOTHgbs=; b=Zgzyfj6l0uPtgFPN3kBrc9ogos0+E8k0zKWwjRj81Jku3iLf0xYDKfZg+g5mAAbBV/ eYPp410OiJua5ssWRnPVvAYM1wyqKUXnnqWWm3AewwY33h6IaVuQOuEfa8DQRq3uHomz eBSsOh+8i28cYhcHpV1rw+baQNXDvpRmS9+ds42HWp8W/N6RxLm+FVs/Btzipu3Ns/sV 9Uwd3iDiSqbB628K7gQnCPgkyaQDOZmFuUOqRqtyCJjcJCsRsfM74EXpaWG3v+npAGx5 EO76VinUmR15C5hh4UK/PbhC/u/FVWUddLSbftsPNXVu9sdycPGxJjGVjk3acTeZcVkR /LAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725387044; x=1725991844; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9GQ9sYmq23Z6/SHuDQn2u2tbIwbJeOXi5ZKWAOTHgbs=; b=RAy3C1/kUTUqF5luPRClYui5ZcjydBmxlUI46ey/+tBe+CksbPGIVB+fIwDmWfOL7E Sb5C6Ue1cexN9a/U+oMI46zHZR3IznMYkstOsLAkr4I07eO6v24lwot3/z9D2lkdOdDW ntA/W3RLDyHUgReCaPzGRaB50mpUBQYsiM0/khfvFmPrCjBeeCFqGQ5EUruXFmt4zzSD ACAOfhd5hiLw+69hW5GQQBTrzL8nSx0QZu0RnSQaUxbn+ZDRin/Eblh727TBs6vO4SkB ragQenucRpB4oDwhDAfhTnx+qaOKl3+UrJQQpDMf8aTfie1RKzMArYLmxLvAncOC25Oi 11lA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxSmuZtrKzYOyN7fMiSC9enXlVUFTM04nGifmLREGEw6BYL5/Qa kmgSjX6R9pNF2REX46jyaXW2kIc8YsiiDZx+pa3NuWMjvGtRm0sZsLqhhTOMIfcbgKBjoLFSinN hMYV4jKKYFRYCii1jJ+OBUNXOwPBia5981jMuSVfdqVQRS6Po X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHjS+f6YhqzYkHdnBpekv4imaETiCeXsk9oo2Sw6dVIHAA6GUol8cizMyywOZOf2qCQUs6vykcQZR4rJwfYz2E= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4e0f:b0:2d8:73ba:9444 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2d873ba9619mr22925137a91.5.1725387044505; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 12:10:33 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e36bc606213af9c5" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wytw56Z3Gz4K2K --000000000000e36bc606213af9c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > As part of the migration, we yank LLVM out of the src. > > "pkg upgrade" also upgrade kernel and userland packages - Welcome to > the century of the fruitbat. > > And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask? > pkgbase is the path forward. It is the future. We are better off putting all our horses behind that effort so we can make it the default install in 15.0. Once we have that, this whole debate becomes moot, for the most part. Userland in rust can compete with userland in C. And with go, python, etc for whatever does the job the best. If rust is so much better, then people will use it, otherwise they will use the C version. It doesn't become moot for the kernel, but the kernel is much harder. The crux of the issue is that adding Rust bindings double our work to improve and evolve the system: it has to be done for C and for Rust and we have to make sure work done in one doesn't break the other. When you strip off the drama from the Linux dust-up over this, that's one of the fundamental issues that the Linux kernel developers are trying to get answers to and failing. Warner --000000000000e36bc606213af9c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFA= M Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freeb= sd.dk> wrote:
As part of the migration, we yank LLVM out of the src.
=C2=A0
"p= kg upgrade" also upgrade kernel and userland packages - Welcome to
the century of the fruitbat.
=C2=A0
And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask?

pkgbase is the path forward. It is the future. We are bett= er off putting all our
horses=C2=A0behind that effort so we can m= ake it the default install in 15.0.

Once we have t= hat, this whole debate becomes moot, for the most part.
Userland = in rust can compete with userland in C. And with go, python, etc
= for whatever does the job the best. If rust is so much better, then people<= /div>
will use it, otherwise they will use the C version.
It doesn't become moot for the kernel, but the kernel is mu= ch=C2=A0harder. The crux of the issue
is that adding Rust binding= s double our work to improve and evolve the system: it has
to be = done for C and for Rust and we have to make sure work done in one doesn'= ;t break
the other. When you strip off the drama from the Linux d= ust-up over this, that's one of
the fundamental issues that t= he Linux kernel developers are trying to get answers to and
faili= ng.

Warner
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