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Date:      Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:53:30 -0600
From:      "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@over-yonder.net>
To:        Stephen McKay <mckay@thehub.com.au>
Cc:        chat@freebsd.org
Subject:   Browser wars (was Re: Taming Netscape Navigator?)
Message-ID:  <20020305105330.H3880@over-yonder.net>
In-Reply-To: <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:07:32AM %2B1000
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.43.0203011634360.2796-100000@pilchuck.reedmedia.net> <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> <200203051407.g25E7WF10805@dungeon.home>

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On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:07:32AM +1000 I heard the voice of
Stephen McKay, and lo! it spake thus:
> 
> How interesting!  As soon as I saw Opera's tabbed interface, I was sold.
> 
> The few times since then that I've had to use Netscape with its one-page-
> per-window scheme have been tediously painful.  I can't imagine going back.
> With Netscape I could usefully open maybe 30 windows, and I would lose
> them in the clutter.  With Opera, I can open about 100 or so.  After that,
> it gets a bit slow, but with a fast Athlon and half a gig of ram, it's fine.

Well, my line of thinking goes something like this:
A) Opera is a web browser
B) Web browsers are designed and optimized for rendering HTML and related
   tasks
C) When you have more than one independant window in an area (be that
   area a desktop, an individual application parent window, whatever),
   there are a number of tasks involved in managing them, including
   handling resizing, iconifying, maximizing, naming, selecting, etc.
D) There is a class of programs called "window managers" that are
   designed and optimized for managing windows


So, given (A&&B)&&(C&&D), trying to make a web browser act like a window
manager doesn't make much sense.

Also, with all-in-one, it's impossible to interleave the browser windows
with my other windows; additionally, it's practically impossible to see
more than one webpage at a time, unless I make the Opera window itself
a completely insane size, which then causes blocking of everything else
on my screen.


Now, in some environments (the !@$& idiot Windows UI, say), it makes
sense, because the window manager such as it is is completely inadequate
for the task once you open more than a very few windows, so you HAVE to
have your applications do internal management to add "layers" so to speak.
But in a X11 environment, when you can pick and choose among a number of
WM's with great configurability and scalability...   what's the point?


> The thing I really need now is a good HTML filter to remove some of
> the more repulsive web garbage (popup windows, flashing fonts, scrolling
> messages in the status bar, target="new" on links, etc).  Just never quite
> get around to writing one.

Well, keeping Javascript turned off with a vengeance like I do is pretty
good for most of those   ;p

Opera and Mozilla both have options to ignore target="_blank", I believe.
You could also do some fiddling with stylesheets to turn off the
annoyance of <blink> etc.


> Now, about your assertion that dual CPUs are more wonderful than wonderful,
> consider the effect of adding a cpu usage limiting scheduler that caused
> processes that were using 50% or more of the cpu to sleep 1 clock tick out
> of 2.  Wouldn't that be just like two cpus at half the speed?  Doesn't that
> mean I could fake up a dual 700 from my Athlon 1400 for little more than
> a bit of kernel hackery?  Maybe your dual PPRO really is obsolete. :-)

Of course it's obsolete.  I await your shipment of a dual Athlon to
replace it   :P

If it's obsolete, then what is my P133 laptop, P120 backup workstation,
and 486/66 router?

You could, in theory I suppose, with such a setup simulate a dual 700
with your single 1400 (and without having to deal with IPI's or cache
synchronization).  But wouldn't you rather just have a dual 1400?



-- 
Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)     |    fullermd@over-yonder.net
Unix Systems Administrator      |    fullermd@futuresouth.com
Specializing in FreeBSD         |    http://www.over-yonder.net/

"The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
      haven't figured out how to light the middle yet"

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