From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mon Mar 30 03:28:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4542702E6 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 03:28:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48rHwM2bCxz4FvP for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 03:28:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id c145so17569141qke.12 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 20:28:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EQbXJCNa9vGYXJ9iD06KDtqcrwJSbs4UfdNj/xpJLhY=; b=R78LLpEgko0YQn5EMwl8pF7j9REHmpolok2O69GjAIkKNk0vq5leNzCJBQo//GSCk5 FWwUiVZMgzbONAwew4AgRKcNNvpyzpeX4QK2vQ5eVl5pLxllyLEo+t4mrLORTG3iqDBu y170bpGhSNwvhDCn0aMJkTwav/bQTpg+XL9ns2WWftSeMRxojfHOzpJj60obFu9Xgt8X Ng5q1siL9jfzWFo0v6iRT4/C6tnylGeZDLwogDIiAr19h3iaeckfWQskmT6qD6I0F8Kn gPcV3K8Wq27qvXBroR/rAfvc1PGmSr6g7C5F1CYDLSVV6MAUjaL5tOG21Yu7lKzaOorT sr+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EQbXJCNa9vGYXJ9iD06KDtqcrwJSbs4UfdNj/xpJLhY=; b=qZ5PyW77Kmr85FkHpn4dOrVVHQRE4oJh3m+uMFhdnPXRrcTYi8mfX6/hspKEUnl0Ef w9qm6iXkCy0aSnGvUrjP24D8ecrCl++ZZIQBH3seSKQ92ZsS9nQh1ZAEc5VCFW21U+K5 aF8oQa2cYRjPlDX6wS8EFVvjCt0YkcY2ZdA7H/icFPty7zvq3GWTi2ym1NsIQ5lsLjJo j+SLUu7lzp0Px13TsyR9WUKW+4gvozrNZTpMaCG69aOxH/ZGOqLgBxB2pmKBYwWdaCy7 CE+ohLG5IiHaOmdZXp/XWsuduv0jd0JfcCO+t+Yn9jhVWwRu5uZmNeya7r3ngMaUKdeV wKVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1XZ8opzR0tcFFUTL6xwSv+Vgn3I1aGsMiuszDGMN+yjm9YgcWW q3QcYhUPvKa2AIbac7F5L12NQN7z8G7mF/njOuza7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuSvVke7Ysy/B2rXBR+Td7bs2HIGjMfkK+J/jT7rAgPiiuJ9Tk3gmSzzakMrHY8HB3+l0ll904fZo7kkomMcGE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:22ef:: with SMTP id p15mr9738160qki.495.1585538873504; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 20:27:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <18df34fe-6256-6e68-ead5-481e83a501fe@freebsd.org> <4C050E22-E571-47ED-87A1-FE1BAC69A073@bsdio.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:27:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: When will the FreeBSD (u)EFI work? To: Kyle Evans Cc: Rebecca Cran , Nathan Whitehorn , "Simon J. Gerraty" , Tomoaki AOKI , FreeBSD Current , Chris H X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48rHwM2bCxz4FvP X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=R78LLpEg; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.01)[ip: (-9.18), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.36), asn: 15169(-0.46), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 03:28:19 -0000 On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 9:24 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:16 PM Rebecca Cran wrote: > > > > > > > On Mar 29, 2020, at 9:11 PM, Nathan Whitehorn > wrote: > > > > > > The problem then is that we have treated loader as a > > > continuously-updatable part of the OS, like the kernel, and the update > > > system and development process assumes they get updated in sync. > > > > But at the moment how often do users mount the ESP and update loader.efi > on it? So it seems it rarely _needs_ to be updated at the moment. > > > > The interpreter developer in me wants this to be more frequent than it > probably is. =-) Right now, we have to plan on optionally supporting > any new features that we end up adding to the interpreter itself (e.g. > lua C modules). I can think of one at the moment that will be joining > us in the coming months -- while a bad example because this particular > module will only be presented if the system supports it, it'd be nice > to not have to have optional shims for old loaders for years on end. > Yes. This is why we need to bite the bullet, update the docs, etc and come up with a firm plan for this like we did for gcc removal. It's lingered about 3 years too long at this point (much of it my fault for not wanting to push the issue and upset the apple cart, but that complacency has done the project no favors). Warner