From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Thu Aug 29 21:32:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ED3E07EA for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46KG6Q2l2Jz4DNP for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5C1FDE07E9; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: fcp@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDFFE07E8 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46KG6P31M1z4DNC for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id g4so5409500qtq.7 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 14:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t370hma+L6lmoL29ph5rMXaIN65CYesVtRZQtj6/L3Y=; b=2OeaZ8GYhg7L52BtAAYIKbGd4620qyJXxpLw8+CfVkTuLeVACLc8skdM4MF0SqOvb3 o2L6vDWdvwaVymd5TkKDjGARfZTGWQtThdChCDfzqqDyC663SS69EwIIHB2ht/ia9YHO 7mE1K2dgAspXb4pZKx+FJm7I41fTH4nzRREOuGGlY7nVe3x+tJBWHDYo4pqhNwJNXqej tHJhTEhvDiWejEYynxzHEYxcuVpfKtD8gR5OGz0KeQYf0D8iG/OxeqLGp87zn3pIIzgX nO65JULsffWqCZ5QYtLeCM2Mj7UYqhmhK8o/RAarqJfFw6JKO+ypWqZFtuxlaZrS1Ban oErw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=t370hma+L6lmoL29ph5rMXaIN65CYesVtRZQtj6/L3Y=; b=C6fpahMVk5AwRfNxzF9RK/WrkN6dQ/x+yJYf1uHCiwwdeoB71ccaAOvqEaFaD9oCcI gDQqOCo9MmBsf8BXj46zTCNsUYJvjWCgOguL3WM089ttkGuy6eioXAcfExS/7jrt7LQG eTWfJ5hDUsA0dM5pCQTE98LSUT8cUjpTVS8VqiEVmqeTruX+XYYrH7YlrzthUpdJl9EE FSjaKXkjc+oU3XjQ5mypQOI3Rd95nu0WDBKdfRa6tWmKRI0+DZoPqgUXlckUxrsfg9LX 2beJwnMYS/KyTdGZCfEFI6eWCu7+veFLMjjnIQyJC20OfGvQ5nqgzZtXUTwlmbu7AWM7 jlRg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+qUGCULCbNeaxeOrvF3KQEBW4OnXb+mChwpbLNKWhi0PAPAOX SLqbmlmBuyjJIHmudFLdopfftYFLoaO+SBqdqSvw8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzu/TEaMKEGJaicoo/kG89YsEyHSSBwdn/EWwXCDFL8TNWn9IHFu4aXk465mkEFyOIo19ZHinj31xCclBp5N7g= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f6c6:: with SMTP id d6mr8235136qvo.102.1567114348210; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 14:32:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201908291905.x7TJ5Bw8091371@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 15:32:17 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP 20190401-ci_policy: CI policy To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Marcelo Araujo , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Hackers , fcp@freebsd.org, Konstantin Belousov , Li-Wen Hsu , Kristof Provost X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 46KG6P31M1z4DNC X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=2OeaZ8GY; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[fcp@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.92)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.84), asn: 15169(-2.32), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:32:30 -0000 On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 3:26 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 1:05 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > >> (unneeded context removed) >> >> > > In either scenario we end up reducing test coverage, which means we?re >> > > going to push more bugs towards users. >> > > >> > > > I totally agree. This is an overly-bureaucratic solution in search >> of >> > > > a problem. >> > > > >> > > > If this needs to be addressed at all (and I'm not sure it does), >> then >> > > > another sentence or two in bullet item 10 in section 18.1 [*] of the >> > > > committer's guide should be enough. And even then it needn't be >> > > > overly-formal and should just mention that if a commit does break >> the >> > > > build the committer is expected to be responsive to that problem and >> > > > the commit might get reverted if they're unresponsive. I don't >> think >> > > > we need schedules. >> > > > >> > > I do feel that?s a better argument. We?ve always had a policy of >> > > reverting on request (AIUI), so this is more or less trying to be a >> > > strong restatement of that, more than a fundamental shift in policy. >> > > >> > >> > We don't have a policy to revert commit, actually revert commit is >> > something bad, it is kind of punishment, I have been there, nobody >> wants to >> > be there. Stop to push this non-sense argument. >> >> Here in lies one of the fundemental problems, this view by some that >> a "revert commit is something bad, it is kind of punishment". That is >> not true. Reverts are GREAT things, they allow the tree to be returned >> to a known state, usually quicly. The original commit is STILL IN SVN, >> and a bad revert can guess what.. be reverted!. >> >> IMHO the project as a whole needs to overcome its fear of reverts and >> start to use them for the great and powerful things that they are. >> >> This connection of bad and punishment needs to stop, and the sooner >> the better. >> > In the past, if someone had any follow on work at all in their tree, the reversion would be quite disruptive to that work. Most of the time it's a lot easier for me, with a lot less friction, to just fix issues that come up after the commit than to revert and prepare a new commit. Sure, it's possible, but it can destroy work in extreme cases. *THAT* is why I'm firmly in the camp of giving the original committer a shot at fixing things because it's much less disruptive to them, and generally we can get a fix into the tree faster. It reduces friction and encourages people to fix things quickly, imho, to hesitate a little on the revert. Especailly when the broken thing is the playstation loader on powerpc that can stay broken for the hour or six (or even days) it takes me to figure out why it broke... Often things away from the beaten path don't get discovered for days or weeks or months, and a reversion then can be extremely disruptive if there's other changes layered on top of the offending commit.... So the whole reversion issue is a lot more complicated than 'oh, it's still in svn'. There are real high costs associated with being too quick or liberal on the revert and those must be weighed against the damage the bad commit is doing.. Warner