From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 27 05:13:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1901A16A4DF for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:13:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.web-strider.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D6743D4C for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:13:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from coolf89ea26645 (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id k6R5Djx64680; Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Message-ID: <003c01c6b13b$6c38dad0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Barniskis" References: <20060713181058.56349.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com><002101c6af09$aacf32f0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> <44C51886.6040207@scls.lib.wi.us> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:13:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 Cc: jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu, danial_thom@yahoo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Nick Withers Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:13:58 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Barniskis" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: ; ; ; "Nick Withers" Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Danial Thom" > > To: "Greg Barniskis" ; "Nick Withers" > > > > Cc: ; ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:10 AM > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > >> Burying your head in the sand is a common method > >> used by stupid people that have no answer to the > >> truth. I don't blame you; you guys don't want > >> your employers to know that you've wasted man > >> 1000s of their dollars because you don't know the > >> performance characteristics of the hardware > >> you've recommended. It must be thoroughly > >> embarrassing. > [snip] > > > I do agree with Danial that most USERS on this list are > > burying their heads in the sand on this issue. But I will > > point out that there isn't really any reason they shouldn't > > be. What the market wants is features, not speed. And > > that is what the FreeBSD developers are working on. > > Features over speed is generally the right equation, yes. > > But I think you're being too generous to Danial. The quote of his > above was in direct response to my assertion that many people refuse > to listen to him because he frequently engages in cheap demagogy[1]. > He does, but he is also right on this performance point. The truth can always be wrapped more palatably, but I think one of the differences between a system administrator and a user is that a user can't deal with the truth unless it's spoon fed in the nursery, an administrator should be approaching it as a professional, which means ignoring the irrelevant cheap demagogery and ignoring their own preconceptions of how things are "supposed" to work, and paying attention to the kernels of truth. I have to sort through giant piles of horseshit every time I look at the latest Cisco sales and marketing dreck, to find out what might be important in one of their new products, this isn't any different. And frankly I find the saccherine cloying marketingspeak to be far more disgusting and offensive then the lame kindergarden flames that Danial has so far been able to come up with. > His response? Another whole boatload of cheap demagogy, questioning > the intelligence, aptitude and moral character of anyone who doesn't > listen to him, by way of accusations that are wholly unsupported by > facts. I could probably rest my case right there, but I think his > perception (and yours) that people are not receptive to claims of > FreeBSD performance problems is quite simply false. > > Every time a performance question is brought up, I see a flurry of > calls for clarification and for the formulation of repeatable tests > which are generally agreed to be an accurate gauge of the problem. Calling for testing is pretty much a way of excusing the claim. People including Danial, have done the testing in the past, posted the results, then had armchair quarterbacks pick apart the test methodology claiming the tests were done wrong, thus irrelevant. So why even bother doing it anymore. But, you asked for it, you got it: Machine #1: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 6.1 Pentium 3 550Mhz freebsd-cvs# dmesg Copyright (c) 1992-2006 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 1 17:23:18 PDT 2006 tedm@freebsd-cvs.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/GENERICNOUSBNOFIRE Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (548.54-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x673 Stepping = 3 Features=0x383fbff real memory = 671088640 (640 MB) avail memory = 647458816 (617 MB) MPTable: ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8 ioapic0: Assuming intbase of 0 ioapic0 irqs 0-34 on motherboard kbd1 at kbdmux0 cpu0 on motherboard pcib0: pcibus 0 on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pci0: at device 11.0 (no driver attached) pcib1: at device 13.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 tl0: port 0x3800-0x380f irq 30 at device 7.0 on pci1 miibus0: on tl0 nsphy0: on miibus0 nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto tlphy0: on miibus0 tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI tl0: Ethernet address: 00:50:8b:f1:82:17 sym0: <875> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xc6ffdf00-0xc6ffdfff,0xc6fff000-0xc6ffffff irq 23 at device 9.0 on pci1 sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking sym0: [GIANT-LOCKED] sym1: <875> port 0x3400-0x34ff mem 0xc6ffde00-0xc6ffdeff,0xc6ffe000-0xc6ffefff irq 22 at device 9.1 on pci1 sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking sym1: [GIANT-LOCKED] pci0: at device 14.0 (no driver attached) ida0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xc6efe000-0xc6efefff irq 20 at device 16.0 on pci0 ida0: [GIANT-LOCKED] ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=1.22 idad0: on ida0 idad0: 34719MB (71106240 sectors), blocksize=512 pci0: at device 18.0 (no driver attached) isab0: at device 20.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on pci0 ata0: on atapci0 ata1: on atapci0 pci0: at device 20.2 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 20.3 (no driver attached) eisa0: on motherboard mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 pmtimer0 on isa0 orm0: at iomem 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: [FAST] fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 ppc0: at port 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa0 ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode ppbus0: on ppc0 plip0: on ppbus0 lpt0: on ppbus0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port ppi0: on ppbus0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 sio1: type 16550A vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 Timecounter "TSC" frequency 548543576 Hz quality 800 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle acd0: CDROM at ata0-master PIO4 sa0 at sym1 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 sa0: Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device sa0: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 7, 16bit) Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a ipfw2 (+ipv6) initialized, divert loadable, rule-based forwarding disabled, default to deny, logging disabled tl0: link state changed to UP freebsd-cvs# freebsd-cvs# pwd /root freebsd-cvs# bonnie File './Bonnie.81888', size: 104857600 Writing with putc()...done Rewriting...done Writing intelligently...done Reading with getc()...done Reading intelligently...done Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU 100 7745 39.4 7748 12.0 8808 15.3 23303 98.3 151922 99.1 12579.6 99.1 freebsd-cvs# Machine #2: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 4.11 Pentium 3 550Mhz billmax# dmesg Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE #0: Mon Nov 14 11:25:24 PST 2005 tedm@billmax.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/BILLMAX Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (448.95-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 Features=0x183fbff real memory = 536870912 (524288K bytes) avail memory = 518692864 (506536K bytes) Changing APIC ID for IO APIC #0 from 0 to 8 on chip Programming 35 pins in IOAPIC #0 IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 -> irq 0 FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard: 2 CPUs cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 io0 (APIC): apic id: 8, version: 0x00220011, at 0xfec00000 Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc039c000. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled md0: Malloc disk npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pci0: at 11.0 pcib1: at device 13.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 tl0: port 0x2800-0x280f mem 0xc6ef9df0-0xc6ef9dff irq 9 at device 7.0 on pci1 tl0: Ethernet address: 00:08:c7:9f:92:77 miibus0: on tl0 nsphy0: on miibus0 nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto tlphy0: on miibus0 tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI sym0: <875> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xc6efb000-0xc6efbfff,0xc6ef9f00-0xc6ef9fff irq 10 at device 9.0 on pci1 sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking sym1: <875> port 0x2400-0x24ff mem 0xc6efa000-0xc6efafff,0xc6ef9e00-0xc6ef9eff irq 11 at device 9.1 on pci1 sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking pci1: at 13.0 irq 5 pci0: (vendor=0x0e11, dev=0xa0f0) at 14.0 pcib2: at device 18.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 ida0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem 0xb8000000-0xbfffffff,0xc6ffff00-0xc6ffffff irq 15 at device 0.0 on pci2 ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=4.44 idad0: on ida0 idad0: 26029MB (53309280 sectors), blocksize=512 isab0: at device 20.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: irq 0 at device 20.2 on pci0 uhci0: Could not map ports device_probe_and_attach: uhci0 attach returned 6 piix0: at device 20.3 on pci0 eisa0: on motherboard mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 orm0: