From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 15:10:33 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DE70F0F for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:10:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C0A8A3 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:10:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [73.34.117.227] (helo=ilsoft.org) by mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XtH1K-000BPV-I5; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:23:10 +0000 Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id sAPEN8eW013437; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 07:23:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@FreeBSD.org) X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 73.34.117.227 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX19z5vrPXja+TeWMWA0N27fO X-Authentication-Warning: paranoia.hippie.lan: Host revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240] claimed to be [172.22.42.240] Subject: Re: svn commit: r274739 - head/sys/mips/conf From: Ian Lepore To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86egsrxypx.fsf@nine.des.no> References: <201411200552.sAK5qnXP063073@svn.freebsd.org> <20141120084832.GE24601@funkthat.com> <20141121092245.GI99957@funkthat.com> <1416582989.1147.250.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <026FEB8A-CA8C-472F-A8E4-DA3D0AC44B34@grondar.org> <1416596266.1147.290.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <1416598889.1147.297.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <86egsvueqk.fsf@nine.des.no> <1416691274.1147.339.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <398A380D-49AF-480C-8842-8835F81EF641@grondar.org> <1416806894.1147.362.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <18B8A926-59C0-49B4-ADA3-A11688609852@grondar.org> <1416841268.1147.386.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> <86wq6k9okk.fsf@nine.des.no> <8661e3wtk6.fsf@nine.des.no> <86oarvvaet.fsf@nine.des.no> <86egsrxypx.fsf@nine.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 07:23:07 -0700 Message-ID: <1416925387.1147.437.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ilsoft.org id sAPEN8eW013437 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Mark R V Murray X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:10:33 -0000 On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 13:15 +0100, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Ian, please try the attached patch. >=20 > The way this is intended to be used is that you set up a system with an > /etc/rc that does nothing else than mount the root file system and > append the output from "sysctl -b hw.attachtimes" to a log file, then > reboot. You let it run for as long as you wish, then copy the log file > to another machine and run the attachtimes utility (source code below) > on the log file to extract the data and display either the raw numbers > or a histogram showing the distribution. >=20 > See freefall:~des/software/attachtimes.tgz for an example of how to set > this up. All you need is the loader and kernel, a minimal /etc, and th= e > tools required by /etc/rc (sh, fsck, mount, df, sysctl, halt, reboot). > The example contains quite a bit more than that because I wanted to be > able to boot it in single-user mode for debugging. >=20 > The patch can easily be modified to record the actual timestamps instea= d > of just the delta, but remember to modify the utility as well, or the > output will be complete nonsense. >=20 > DES Getting the results for this is going to take a while... I can't get the system past mountroot right now. I have no idea why. It's been months since I last successfully booted -current on this old hardware. I'm also very busy with $work. For the 3 numbers that are identical at the start, I think we're reading garbage in binuptime() because the clock driver isn't working yet. The numbers first change with at91_st0, that's the clock driver. atmelarm0 is the parent of everything listed between nexus and it, so the large number there is probably the subtraction of the post-init clock value from the pre-init clock garbage. In a more general sense, I'm going to repeat a couple things... The clock all this is being measured with runs at 32 KHz. That's 'K'. =20 This output is evidence that the system behaves exactly as I've been saying it behaves for a long long while. You seem convinced, I don't understand why, that there must be some error here. I don't understand why you think a system like this would behave any differently each time it is powered on. The only actual entropy involved is whatever minor thermal transients may exist in the crystal oscillator. With 32KHz resolution (or even a few MHz) that amounts to not a lot of measurable variation at all. The repeatability of the boot sequence of hardware like this is nearly perfect at the resolution we're measuring. While that may be bad for gathering entropy, it's a wonderful thing when you're debugging, because problems that would be almost impossible to nail down on modern complex hardware are 100% reproducible by just hitting the reset button. That reproducibility extends all the way into multiuser mode unless there is a network connection where packet arrival times start adding interrupt-based entropy. -- Ian