From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 12 21:15:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63766106564A for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:15:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michael.copeland@gmail.com) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBB58FC0C for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michael.copeland@gmail.com) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so736808yxb.13 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:15:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L4KSbLNlX35G7e3RiI/8070nPLNuY+qkolQSkAT2Wjs=; b=bUFxtt0d1kvhXJwQGo2TY0mtk+z5CkWNoWbOqHZeaS835c5CXS6W68fQnvhyTdaX0s oSl+NMcqFfUpSIuGLUlfSZR5WjY2i+lozcGValTRc0vFsVpKldHVGj2WDIxMjpMXfK/A /meo5U3RoLLTXmqV9OyorSIjOqiOFQ2NGMUjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M0iAlnL7TnN5VUltGLRU25o6326mhuU/eFxuBD+OjrKN0stHwngBBAS9PuQQQfT8Dw BkzGh0dIVeGi1V7PsEZzMWN3CGytF5IIqS7h6k44JTbolmb7pJPRF+FnLal0868uwFP1 Ng1+8M/oc0XcYKk4cZttek3GgvPmLXiMXX1Rs= Received: by 10.151.15.9 with SMTP id s9mr7090055ybi.70.1229116524193; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?70.10.7.34? ([70.10.7.34]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m30sm4605180elf.12.2008.12.12.13.15.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:15:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4942D456.3050207@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:15:02 -0500 From: michael User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chad Perrin References: <20081211190951.GB845@comcast.net> <20081211113257.405a082c@gom.home> <20081211202023.GC845@comcast.net> <20081211134622.15c81ecd@gom.home> <20081212002813.GD32300@kokopelli.hydra> <20081211170011.777236f8@gom.home> <20081212015814.GB32982@kokopelli.hydra> <20081211215036.526b2cad@gom.home> <20081212181148.GD36348@kokopelli.hydra> <20081212110745.7657ff59@gom.home> <20081212211111.GD37185@kokopelli.hydra> In-Reply-To: <20081212211111.GD37185@kokopelli.hydra> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: ad X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:15:25 -0000 Chad Perrin wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:07:45AM -0800, prad wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:11:48 -0700 >> Chad Perrin wrote: >> >> >>> I don't recall anyone saying "I'm with such-and-such a FreeBSD >>> development team, and these are the reasons we aren't going to do >>> anything about that at this time:". >>> >>> >> i don't either, but these development teams do exist: >> http://www.freebsd.org/projects/index.html >> and so does a mechanism for initiating projects: >> "If you feel that a project is missing, please send the URL and a short >> description (3-10 lines) to www@FreeBSD.org." >> > > That is a much, much better response to questions about improving > desktop-oriented functionality than the sort of thing I've been seeing > lately from certain anti-lots-of-stuff people on this list: > > because linux got exactly that way and it sucks now. > > That's not what I'd call a productive response, nor is it well supported. > It doesn't serve as a viable argument -- it's just obstinate refusal to > entertain the idea that functionality isn't bad just because its most > obvious use is desktop-oriented. > > > >> and i guess as tyson explained there needs to be a balancing of limited >> resources. >> > > There must always be such a balance -- but I don't see how that in any > way prevents us from discussing whether the resources exist. > > > >>> On the other hand, their statements *do* imply that *my* position is >>> illegitimate in some way >>> >>> >> i don't think so. it's more along the lines of "we don't need this in >> light of the priorities". >> > > Actually, it's more like this: > > because linux got exactly that way and it sucks now. > > > >> however, i do think michael powell makes a >> very good point about "setting a very dangerous precedent" by ending up >> allowing "third parties to have the ability to dictate to the devs >> what code goes into FreeBSD?" >> > > I don't think anything I said suggests we let third parties dictate > anything. Please point out where I suggested such a thing. We just need > to make sure that we don't confuse "listening to suggestions and > discussing their viability, and their technical pros and cons," with > "taking orders from MS Windows users." > > > >>> Some people don't know that, and are basically told to go >>> away by some people when they bring it up. Still other people >>> suggest alternate approaches to fixing the problem, and are also >>> basically told to go away, when a more appropriate response would be >>> to say "I think you should talk to the people at the swfdec and gnash >>> projects about that," in most cases. >>> >>> >> ok so here's a solution. whenever someone tells people to go away (i >> don't think it has been done quite that way, but i see little point in >> going into that here), surely others can point to those who are in the >> appropriate projects. that way you have the choice of pursuing the >> matter or seeking an alternative os. >> > > Maybe not "quite that way", but the implication has, at times, been > unmistakable. > > Of course, if someone points people at the appropriate venue for > discussing something *after* someone else has said "FOAD", it may already > be too late. My preference would be for people who don't have something > productive to say, who only want to scare people away, to keep it to > themselves. > > after reading all these posts, i've still come up with this answer after looking .. "freebsd - the power to serve" the motto isn't "the power to serve and run Far Cry"