From nobody Mon Sep 9 18:35:15 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X2b9g22Rlz5TfYY for ; Mon, 09 Sep 2024 18:35:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel.engberg.lists@pyret.net) Received: from smtp-8fa9.mail.infomaniak.ch (smtp-8fa9.mail.infomaniak.ch [83.166.143.169]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "relay.mail.infomaniak.ch", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X2b9f6c0Qz4K3G; Mon, 9 Sep 2024 18:35:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel.engberg.lists@pyret.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtp-4-0001.mail.infomaniak.ch (smtp-4-0001.mail.infomaniak.ch [10.7.10.108]) by smtp-4-3000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X2b9b5QQjz2gj; Mon, 9 Sep 2024 20:35:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pyret.net; s=20231006; t=1725906915; bh=uxjRW5FF5eDxHcCpksVmhpMQCxWEJos9lk4NmwxQMzk=; h=Date:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=GT+Ol1GwMyOJajsX5uIqTAp9+0EFut8J+N4HG1MP+wgUYs21tKc8yZ8y78clHZC49 DL+rm+KM2574k6DoC1wxL2JZcVE0omVP+Vckp1IgVOzj3m2kSejDDs9a0GTkQzmVTU HzBXAenUvrgJfuZfVpTh47GdmXDTRY4SivQpA0Z5sJt3yPBwwU1KJxbdRa5Ubrlijh us7ulAEw5/jDKJjetFN5hWk2xA1ignedPiINQz2jYJRxN0J065/lamR/IOt6RAEeRb BF22SLBIf4f2FJvYCMnCj6RWpL5LWIpzpR2YSiWAiGBG+L0khAagOHX9c6IpIyytTp er/emoxav1/jg== Received: from unknown by smtp-4-0001.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4X2b9b2fvmzCdB; Mon, 9 Sep 2024 20:35:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 20:35:15 +0200 Subject: Re: Binary updates (was Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM)) From: Daniel Engberg Reply-To: Daniel Engberg To: void Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Cy Schubert List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_=_swift_1725906915_1e15da2c3454fe16dd04729754182b2f_=_" X-WS-User-Origin: eyJpdiI6IjMvQkVlWjVQaVdNSVBZQjVuRktyU2c9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoiQmg0MGV4VFRkM3RCUWdOeW40L1pVUT09IiwibWFjIjoiNmY1YjE2MGFiYjA2ZjNjODY1MmNiMWJiNTRhZDdjODI1MmJlY2M1NmM3MDYwNGExMjdhYTNhNDNiYjlhODllOSIsInRhZyI6IiJ9 X-WS-User-Mbox: eyJpdiI6Im4wWXRoTEdSYjBxYkxLSTAvYjAwbnc9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoiSWhiUzNHYUIyMDVSZFo1SmNTU3BYUT09IiwibWFjIjoiOTdmNmFkNGMyNTIzMTgyM2JhYzg3MTdlNDY0OTg0ZmFhYmRjYmJiNGQzNzQ5NGI5ZDU5NDU2MTdkMWZlNmRmYiIsInRhZyI6IiJ9 X-WS-Location: eJxzKUpMKykGAAfpAmU- X-Mailer: Infomaniak Workspace (1.3.744) References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <3845d980-7160-4819-82a4-db2281828c8c@app.fastmail.com> <202409090442.4894gGMb086473@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> <20240909143239.8F285AF@slippy.cwsent.com> <15a38054-3a14-4eb4-a803-9ce12e413194@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <15a38054-3a14-4eb4-a803-9ce12e413194@app.fastmail.com> X-Infomaniak-Routing: alpha X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29222, ipnet:83.166.128.0/19, country:CH] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4X2b9f6c0Qz4K3G --_=_swift_1725906915_1e15da2c3454fe16dd04729754182b2f_=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024-09-09T19:38:56.000+02:00, void wrote: >=C2=A0On= =C2=A0Mon,=C2=A09=C2=A0Sep=C2=A02024,=C2=A0at=C2=A015:32,=C2=A0Cy=C2=A0Schu= bert=C2=A0wrote: >>=C2=A0=C2=A0Those=C2=A0of=C2=A0us=C2=A0who=C2=A0build= =C2=A0from=C2=A0source=C2=A0and=C2=A0build=C2=A0ports,=C2=A0whether >>= =C2=A0=C2=A0manually=C2=A0or=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0through=C2=A0our=C2=A0own=C2=A0poudriere,=C2=A0are=C2=A0the=C2=A0minorit= y.=C2=A0Just=C2=A0visit=C2=A0the >>=C2=A0=C2=A0FreeBSD=C2=A0forums. >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0IIRC,=C2=A0the=C2=A0forums=C2=A0don't=C2=A0entertain=C2= =A0issues=C2=A0raised=C2=A0by=C2=A0src=C2=A0builders,=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 >= =C2=A0only=C2=A0-releng.=C2=A0This=C2=A0is=C2=A0from=C2=A0a=C2=A0while= =C2=A0ago=C2=A0though,=C2=A0I=C2=A0might=C2=A0be=C2=A0wrong >=C2=A0about= =C2=A0that=C2=A0now, >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0am=C2=A0happy=C2=A0to=C2=A0be=C2= =A0corrected. >=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0I=C2=A0attend=C2=A0OpenHack=C2= =A0here.=C2=A0People=C2=A0who=C2=A0do=C2=A0use=C2=A0FreeBSD=C2=A0use >>= =C2=A0=C2=A0freebsd-update=C2=A0and=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0binary=C2=A0packages.=C2=A0(I=C2=A0use=C2=A0freebsd-update=C2= =A0and=C2=A0binary=C2=A0packages=C2=A0on >>=C2=A0=C2=A0some=C2=A0VMs= =C2=A0at=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0$JOB,=C2=A0while= =C2=A0maintaining=C2=A0my=C2=A0own=C2=A0network=C2=A0at=C2=A0home=C2=A0as= =C2=A0any=C2=A0developer >>=C2=A0=C2=A0does.) >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0I=C2= =A0use=C2=A0freebsd-update=C2=A0on=C2=A0some=C2=A0VMs=C2=A0too.=C2=A0It= =C2=A0has=C2=A0its=C2=A0place.=C2=A0But=C2=A0always >=C2=A0poudriere >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0for=C2=A0ports,=C2=A0as=C2=A0most=C2=A0of=C2=A0the=C2=A0VMs= =C2=A0are=C2=A0internet=C2=A0facing,=C2=A0and=C2=A0when=C2=A0a=C2=A0vuln = >=C2=A0happens >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0and=C2=A0is=C2=A0patched=C2=A0it's=C2= =A0the=C2=A0fastest=C2=A0way=C2=A0to=C2=A0fix=C2=A0the=C2=A0situation,= =C2=A0rather >=C2=A0than=C2=A0waiting >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0on=C2=A0the= =C2=A0pkg=C2=A0builders. >=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0And=C2=A0that's=C2=A0a= =C2=A0marketing=C2=A0feature=C2=A0of=C2=A0FreeBSD.=C2=A0Most=C2=A0users= =C2=A0don't=C2=A0want >>=C2=A0=C2=A0he=C2=A0hassle=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2= =A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of=C2=A0building=C2=A0and=C2=A0installing=C2= =A0an=C2=A0O/S. >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0Have=C2=A0most=C2=A0users=C2=A0been= =C2=A0asked? >=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0Out=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0real=C2= =A0world=C2=A0people=C2=A0use=C2=A0binary=C2=A0updates=C2=A0and=C2=A0binary= >>=C2=A0=C2=A0packages.=C2=A0We=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0developers=C2=A0are=C2=A0an=C2=A0anomaly=C2=A0these=C2=A0days. >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0I'd=C2=A0not=C2=A0consider=C2=A0myself=C2=A0a=C2=A0dev.= =C2=A0That=C2=A0might=C2=A0be=C2=A0just=C2=A0me=C2=A0though.=C2=A0Is >= =C2=A0streamlining=C2=A0a >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0kernel=C2=A0to=C2=A0have=C2= =A0what=C2=A0you=C2=A0want=C2=A0and=C2=A0no=C2=A0more=C2=A0a=C2=A0'dev'= =C2=A0activity?=C2=A0Manually >=C2=A0patching? >=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2= =A0Just=C2=A0because=C2=A0a=C2=A0few=C2=A0of=C2=A0us=C2=A0build=C2=A0from= =C2=A0source=C2=A0doesn't=C2=A0mean=C2=A0the=C2=A0rest >>=C2=A0=C2=A0of= =C2=A0the=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0world=C2=A0does. >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0How=C2=A0would=C2=A0you=C2=A0know?=C2=A0Who=C2=A0has=C2= =A0counted=C2=A0the=C2=A0numbers?=C2=A0I=C2=A0think=C2=A0maybe=C2=A0a >= =C2=A0poll=C2=A0on=C2=A0the >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0main=C2=A0site=C2=A0might= =C2=A0be=C2=A0enlightening.=C2=A0I=C2=A0mean,=C2=A0I=C2=A0agree=C2=A0src= =C2=A0builders=C2=A0are >=C2=A0probably=C2=A0in=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 >=C2= =A0a=C2=A0minority=C2=A0now,=C2=A0as=C2=A0freebsd-update=C2=A0is=C2=A0conve= nient=C2=A0in=C2=A0standard=C2=A0cases, >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0but=C2=A0it's= =C2=A0possibly=C2=A0a=C2=A0larger=C2=A0number=C2=A0than=C2=A0you=C2=A0think= ,=C2=A0who=C2=A0build=C2=A0from >=C2=A0src. >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0We'll= =C2=A0never=C2=A0really=C2=A0know=C2=A0without=C2=A0counting. >=C2=A0 >= =C2=A0I=C2=A0really=C2=A0hope=C2=A0that=C2=A0when=C2=A0pkgsrc=C2=A0becomes= =C2=A0dominant,=C2=A0that=C2=A0we're=C2=A0still >=C2=A0able=C2=A0to=C2= =A0 >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0grab=C2=A0src=C2=A0in=C2=A0git=C2=A0and=C2=A0checkou= t=C2=A0whats=C2=A0required,=C2=A0and=C2=A0build=C2=A0from=C2=A0that. >= =C2=A0 >=C2=A0It's=C2=A0so=C2=A0very=C2=A0versatile. >=C2=A0 >=C2= =A0-- I would imagine that for larger installs it's something inbetwee= n where you build your own "set" of packages and base with custom setti= ngs etc and then push the binaries. I would also like to remind people= that at least for ports far from all ports have runtime detection of SIM= D instructions which can cause quite a bit of a difference in performance= so setting CPUTYPE might drastically improve performance. Canonical (Ubu= ntu) are looking into providing different sets of packages depending on b= aseline so it's a thing. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-x86-64-v3-I= mages-Azure I also build from source btw =3D) Best regards, = Daniel --_=_swift_1725906915_1e15da2c3454fe16dd04729754182b2f_=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2024-09-09T19:38:56.000+02:00, void <voi= d@f-m.fm> wrote:

On Mon, 9 Sep 202=
4, at 15:32, Cy Schubert wrote:
=

  Those of us who build from source and build ports, whether manually =
or 
 through our own poudriere, are the minority. Just visit =
the FreeBSD forums. 
 
IIRC, the f=
orums don't entertain issues raised by src builders, 
only -r=
eleng. This is from a while ago though, I might be wrong about that now,
am happy to be corrected.

  I attend OpenHack here. People who do use FreeB=
SD use freebsd-update and 
 binary packages. (I use freebsd-u=
pdate and binary packages on some VMs at 
 $JOB, while mainta=
ining my own network at home as any developer does.)
=

 
I use freebsd-update on some VMs too. It has its place=
. But always poudriere
for ports, as most of the VMs are inte=
rnet facing, and when a vuln happens
and is patched it's the =
fastest way to fix the situation, rather than waiting
on the =
pkg builders.

  And that's a marketing feature of FreeBSD. Most users don't want he has=
sle
of building and installing an O/S.

Have most users been asked?

=
Out in the real world people use b= inary updates and binary packages. We
developers are an ano= maly these days.

I'd not conside= r myself a dev. That might be just me though. Is streamlining a
kernel to have what you want and no more a 'dev' activity? Manually patc= hing?

Just= because a few of us build from source doesn't mean the rest of the
world does.

How would y= ou know? Who has counted the numbers? I think maybe a poll on the
=
main site might be enlightening. I mean, I agree src builders are prob= ably in
a minority now, as freebsd-update is convenient in s= tandard cases,
but it's possibly a larger number than you thi= nk, who build from src.

We'll never really kno= w without counting.

I really hope that when pk= gsrc becomes dominant, that we're still able to
grab src in = git and checkout whats required, and build from that.
It's so= very versatile.
--
I would imagine that for larger installs it's something inbetween= where you build your own "set" of packages and base with custom settings e= tc and then push the binaries.
I would also like = to remind people that at least for ports far from all ports have runtime de= tection of SIMD instructions which can cause quite a bit of a difference in= performance so setting CPUTYPE might drastically improve performance. Cano= nical (Ubuntu) are looking into providing different sets of packages depend= ing on baseline so it's a thing. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-x86-64-v3-Image= s-Azure

I also bui= ld from source btw =3D)
Daniel
--_=_swift_1725906915_1e15da2c3454fe16dd04729754182b2f_=_--