From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 06:56:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51C532DA13 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kT0l0kLDz4fZ7 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.114.95]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MPGBR-1jY5Tr1iRh-00Pcl4; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:56:50 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:56:50 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Montgomery-Smith, Stephen" Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: CR LF was: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200613085650.23eb7354.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:URZUUH5eeZoaj6mSMYTdoBr1jS+EiPWgg2qXUIdX7URajKBrzfV Fh/UQadVu8DeZ+eXmQmB6p3qo39VpbeArwv7wl6SpF0FFhtMeCeGqYOGrk0Aga98Sy0j4MB eRuczPe/1TdgiQ1w+NzutOVJaEaKC8EAgXhgaizD21kxptUTCkMz8kibC9jAAQ6TerzCn3b n/10RRhL+Gx9rPoRhFnTQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BxQvVidBJ8U=:h5f8gUsK2JSxBp6rpc3v5n ISDJqO3OaF+YTbURw7KJAJmr7UMux2/btZn18SGExm6hNogvfPt3lOL80xj12x47eCP1799Zg q5fL0XoxWltsMCBoPbL0YU8utTwQ6D4fpLPJHwXupNs3SwgjlWtldXDwzp5hNsG2CLE/ATi3n vUi+RagsUW+an7PZnvs7B20ZLs7bx5gOBeCuF6vHah2uSm3TQJwp6gGvGYNc+6OYX3gjtSwwq oombLNVWfe4/5X4HGa/OMNWTDMaoFDwU8LlW3QdXXBFbW1gf5VagJa48Q72bzhUbUI2cufKnz aJffPXVvtfyV4vjEE0DmW1GAY9RU2HIBdlOYuQMXdv7H/jdOr4JDvOf/A/7OoCZ7jy7ihXhJS Xd/OjSrtsOMkOWBFiJ+TbebpxEqsq06+tYr1gp/eXHpnfRIRouf9BZ1w/mHAxzJI6+n3tfJUq aw4MF7U/qLuaaXa1GAb3RZjS0jKhn0kqD4gc/LS2MOaTkxUQTyaUc+LrRtZ4aNdUFzMk3EQPz POwlDpt/iFB874/X6H9R01OwksIQAtXG7E6oiRjIdNd8Nie+fPEgoF2dUm5GTPY/jF0MiyEjb +J5bBBh8yE7LwolmjuwJeugDaR0GxpWRPBhx7OsIS0Kd6OgAdjOFNVFZ2OXvxe4BB+vFhNQLe u1elKqObt8HIO9a2JiQpD30zK8SllGM094ZLTBOOzaBOvHNRgfN7LtwLGpBVRlhwt2S9xJ5JM MfSTS3X3v4BF9OfvhEIzhibPXTwtKTLjxI5jIY29+e6ey4pf/AO6mDReNsMOYfLkGd1wht5DN 0A1e2R6KlKEFy188Xaw3VpkhZyqgIqUKJGG1h0AIDPMtIvwBaoLHv9jlXoaVjac7S6nTqa1 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kT0l0kLDz4fZ7 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.90 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.570]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.114.95:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.14)[-0.143]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.21)[0.212]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:57 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:54 +0000, Montgomery-Smith, Stephen wrote: > On 6/12/20 2:21 PM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 19:58, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > >> > >> On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > >> > >>>> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >>>> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >>>> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > >>> > >>> Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > >>> first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > >>> carriage return and not print head return. :-) > >>> > >>> On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > >> Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. > > > > Maybe the OP meant teleprinters, which did indeed use 5-bit and 7-bit > > ascii, still used today by hams in RTTY and other legacy digital > > modes. > > > > I used to have a teletype. On these devices, the CR would cause the > printer head to go to the left margin, and the LF would cause the page > to move up one line. > > It always seemed to me to be a waste of bits. Why not have one ASCII > code that did both? Then I found out why. > > One time, I decided to try a LF CR at the end of a line instead of CR > LF. I found that the next character that was typed ended up in the > middle of the page, not on the far left as it should have been. What I > realized was that the CR takes time to complete, because it has to > physically move the printer head to the left margin. The extra LF gave > the printer the extra time it needed. > > So I don't know about typewriters, but teletypes definitely used CR and > LF for two different purposes. And it really was necessary to have CR > LF at the ends of the lines. This was also true for teletypes with a fixed "type basket" and a moving carriage. Additionally, teletype operation guides encourage the use of CR LF as you described, and state that multiple line vertical spacing is to be done using CR LF LF LF LF as needed. That's why there are two keys on the traditional TTY keyboard. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...