From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 8 15:30:17 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268FBA672C2 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:30:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beckman@angryox.com) Received: from nog2.angryox.com (nog2.angryox.com [70.164.19.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4181AAB for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:30:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from beckman@angryox.com) Received: by nog2.angryox.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1EB4E171E679; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:20:46 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=angryox.com; s=powerfulgood; t=1452266446; bh=IWqwnzSx7rIMb6Cb2rxfIkS62WCWBa790oMWSWEo2FU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=gkVsQux5dwi9/ScKfdmROL+wW4sBc4E6DPb2Brk49YnpknBZ4lWHUxJ+Zw6fvLr81 vgaBiyn4sFJrZ1W3U6Vp5KrbMB0aZWrFHmBW74/ASMzAqQkx6n6XduYyz2QMi1HSiL btT/MebXG9MJPVKd1YopV/DmcmURLU70GRfFlRfM= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nog2.angryox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C889171E676; Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:20:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 10:20:46 -0500 From: Peter Beckman To: Dmitry Sivachenko cc: Mark Heily , FreeBSD Hackers , Jonathan de Boyne Pollard Subject: Re: relaunchd: a portable clone of launchd In-Reply-To: <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <5687D3A9.5050400@NTLWorld.com> <817860B6-5D67-41A3-ADD7-9757C7E67C35@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 15:30:17 -0000 On Thu, 7 Jan 2016, Dmitry Sivachenko wrote: > >> On 07 Jan 2016, at 05:12, Mark Heily wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard >> wrote: >>> >>> I recommend, to anyone going down this route, looking towards finishing >>> systembsd, especially instead of inventing a wholly new suite of protocols. >>> >>> * https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systembsd.git >>> * >>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html >>> * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10176275 >>> >>> The reason is that finishing systemdbsd will make happy all of the people >>> who want the desktop environments whose design is driven largely by Linux to >>> work on FreeBSD/PC-BSD. The desktop environments that they'd like to use >>> have been or are being modified to work with these daemons, over this D-Bus >>> protocol. >>> >> >> I strongly disagree with your recommendation to adopt DBus and systemd >> as core components of FreeBSD. >> >> From a practical perspective, the proposal has a low probability of >> success. Systemd is written for Linux and is largely driven by a >> commercial Linux vendor. It is a rapidly moving target, with no sense >> of scope or boundaries. It eagerly consumes the latest and greatest >> innovations in the Linux kernel, with open disdain for portability. >> >> From a philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the direction >> that systemd is taking Linux. It's one of the reasons I switched to >> BSD after many years in the Linux camp. To quote Spock, "Logic clearly >> dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In >> case of FreeBSD, this means that the needs of the desktop users should >> not outweigh the needs of the server/jail/embedded/appliance users. My >> concern with systemd and DBus is that these tools are highly >> desktop-centric, and introduce a large degree of unwanted change, >> complexity, and risk to everyone else. > > > I totally agree. > > systemd is an ugly beast, solving simple problem in complex way. > > After using FreeBSD's rc system for years, I think that switching to something systemd-related would be huge mistake. > No reason to clone everything that happens in Linux world. Utterly and strongly agreed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------