Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 01:38:20 -0500 From: "Nikolas Britton" <nikolas.britton@gmail.com> To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> Cc: Greg Barniskis <nalists@scls.lib.wi.us>, Nick Withers <nick@nickwithers.com>, danial_thom@yahoo.com, jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? Message-ID: <ef10de9a0607262338r7c09878fs7be4499fdf89d017@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <003c01c6b13b$6c38dad0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> References: <20060713181058.56349.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002101c6af09$aacf32f0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> <44C51886.6040207@scls.lib.wi.us> <003c01c6b13b$6c38dad0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645>
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On 7/27/06, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Barniskis" <nalists@scls.lib.wi.us> > To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> > Cc: <jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu>; <danial_thom@yahoo.com>; > <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; "Nick Withers" <nick@nickwithers.com> > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:59 AM > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Danial Thom" <danial_thom@yahoo.com> > > > To: "Greg Barniskis" <nalists@scls.lib.wi.us>; "Nick Withers" > > > <nick@nickwithers.com> > > > Cc: <jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu>; <danial_thom@yahoo.com>; > > > <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:10 AM > > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > > > > >> Burying your head in the sand is a common method > > >> used by stupid people that have no answer to the > > >> truth. I don't blame you; you guys don't want > > >> your employers to know that you've wasted man > > >> 1000s of their dollars because you don't know the > > >> performance characteristics of the hardware > > >> you've recommended. It must be thoroughly > > >> embarrassing. > > [snip] > > > > > I do agree with Danial that most USERS on this list are > > > burying their heads in the sand on this issue. But I will > > > point out that there isn't really any reason they shouldn't > > > be. What the market wants is features, not speed. And > > > that is what the FreeBSD developers are working on. > > > > Features over speed is generally the right equation, yes. > > > > But I think you're being too generous to Danial. The quote of his > > above was in direct response to my assertion that many people refuse > > to listen to him because he frequently engages in cheap demagogy[1]. > > > > He does, but he is also right on this performance point. The truth > can always be wrapped more palatably, but I think one of the differences > between a system administrator and a user is that a user can't deal with > the truth unless it's spoon fed in the nursery, an administrator should > be approaching it as a professional, which means ignoring the > irrelevant cheap demagogery and ignoring their own preconceptions of > how things are "supposed" to work, and paying attention to the kernels of > truth. > > I have to sort through giant piles of horseshit every time I look at the > latest Cisco sales and marketing dreck, to find out what might be > important in one of their new products, this isn't any different. And > frankly I find the saccherine cloying marketingspeak to be far more > disgusting and offensive then the lame kindergarden flames that > Danial has so far been able to come up with. > > > His response? Another whole boatload of cheap demagogy, questioning > > the intelligence, aptitude and moral character of anyone who doesn't > > listen to him, by way of accusations that are wholly unsupported by > > facts. I could probably rest my case right there, but I think his > > perception (and yours) that people are not receptive to claims of > > FreeBSD performance problems is quite simply false. > > > > Every time a performance question is brought up, I see a flurry of > > calls for clarification and for the formulation of repeatable tests > > which are generally agreed to be an accurate gauge of the problem. > > Calling for testing is pretty much a way of excusing the claim. People > including Danial, have done the testing in the past, posted the results, > then had armchair quarterbacks pick apart the test methodology claiming > the tests were done wrong, thus irrelevant. So why even bother doing > it anymore. > > But, you asked for it, you got it: > > Machine #1: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 6.1 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > freebsd-cvs# dmesg > Copyright (c) 1992-2006 The FreeBSD Project. > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 1 17:23:18 PDT 2006 > tedm@freebsd-cvs.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/GENERICNOUSBNOFIRE > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (548.54-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x673 Stepping = 3 > > Features=0x383fbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA, > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,SSE> > real memory = 671088640 (640 MB) > avail memory = 647458816 (617 MB) > MPTable: <COMPAQ PROLIANT > > ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8 > ioapic0: Assuming intbase of 0 > ioapic0 <Version 1.1> irqs 0-34 on motherboard > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > cpu0 on motherboard > pcib0: <MPTable Host-PCI bridge> pcibus 0 on motherboard > pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0 > pci0: <display, VGA> at device 11.0 (no driver attached) > pcib1: <MPTable PCI-PCI bridge> at device 13.0 on pci0 > pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1 > tl0: <Compaq Netelligent 10/100 Proliant> port 0x3800-0x380f irq 30 at > device 7.0 on pci1 > miibus0: <MII bus> on tl0 > nsphy0: <DP83840 10/100 media interface> on miibus0 > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > tlphy0: <ThunderLAN 10baseT media interface> on miibus0 > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:50:8b:f1:82:17 > sym0: <875> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > 0xc6ffdf00-0xc6ffdfff,0xc6fff000-0xc6ffffff irq 23 at device 9.0 on pci1 > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > sym0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > sym1: <875> port 0x3400-0x34ff mem > 0xc6ffde00-0xc6ffdeff,0xc6ffe000-0xc6ffefff irq 22 at device 9.1 on pci1 > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > sym1: [GIANT-LOCKED] > pci0: <base peripheral> at device 14.0 (no driver attached) > ida0: <Compaq Smart Array 431 controller> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > 0xc6efe000-0xc6efefff irq 20 at device 16.0 on pci0 > ida0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=1.22 > idad0: <Compaq Logical Drive> on ida0 > idad0: 34719MB (71106240 sectors), blocksize=512 > pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 18.0 (no driver attached) > isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 20.0 on pci0 > isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 > atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 UDMA33 controller> port > 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on pci0 > ata0: <ATA channel 0> on atapci0 > ata1: <ATA channel 1> on atapci0 > pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 20.2 (no driver attached) > pci0: <bridge> at device 20.3 (no driver attached) > eisa0: <EISA bus> on motherboard > mainboard0: <CPQ0689 (System Board)> on eisa0 slot 0 > pmtimer0 on isa0 > orm0: <ISA Option ROMs> at iomem > 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 > atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 > atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0 > kbd0 at atkbd0 > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0 > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > fdc0: <Enhanced floppy controller> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on > isa0 > fdc0: [FAST] > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > ppc0: <Parallel port> at port 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa0 > ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode > ppbus0: <Parallel port bus> on ppc0 > plip0: <PLIP network interface> on ppbus0 > lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0 > lpt0: Interrupt-driven port > ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0 > sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0 > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 > sio0: type 16550A > sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 > sio1: type 16550A > vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 548543576 Hz quality 800 > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > acd0: CDROM <COMPAQ CDR-8435/0013> at ata0-master PIO4 > sa0 at sym1 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 > sa0: <COMPAQ SDX-400C 3.0B> Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device > sa0: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 7, 16bit) > Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a > ipfw2 (+ipv6) initialized, divert loadable, rule-based forwarding disabled, > default to deny, logging disabled > tl0: link state changed to UP > freebsd-cvs# > freebsd-cvs# pwd > /root > freebsd-cvs# bonnie > File './Bonnie.81888', size: 104857600 > Writing with putc()...done > Rewriting...done > Writing intelligently...done > Reading with getc()...done > Reading intelligently...done > Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential > Input-- --Random-- > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per > Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec > %CPU > 100 7745 39.4 7748 12.0 8808 15.3 23303 98.3 151922 99.1 > 12579.6 99.1 > freebsd-cvs# > > Machine #2: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 4.11 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > billmax# dmesg > Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project. > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE #0: Mon Nov 14 11:25:24 PST 2005 > tedm@billmax.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/BILLMAX > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (448.95-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 > > Features=0x183fbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA, > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR> > real memory = 536870912 (524288K bytes) > avail memory = 518692864 (506536K bytes) > Changing APIC ID for IO APIC #0 from 0 to 8 on chip > Programming 35 pins in IOAPIC #0 > IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 -> irq 0 > FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard: 2 CPUs > cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > io0 (APIC): apic id: 8, version: 0x00220011, at 0xfec00000 > Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc039c000. > Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled > md0: Malloc disk > npx0: <math processor> on motherboard > npx0: INT 16 interface > pcib0: <Intel 82443BX host to PCI bridge (AGP disabled)> on motherboard > pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0 > pci0: <Cirrus Logic GD5446 SVGA controller> at 11.0 > pcib1: <DEC 21150 PCI-PCI bridge> at device 13.0 on pci0 > pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1 > tl0: <Compaq Netelligent 10/100 Proliant> port 0x2800-0x280f mem > 0xc6ef9df0-0xc6ef9dff irq 9 at device 7.0 on pci1 > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:08:c7:9f:92:77 > miibus0: <MII bus> on tl0 > nsphy0: <DP83840 10/100 media interface> on miibus0 > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > tlphy0: <ThunderLAN 10baseT media interface> on miibus0 > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > sym0: <875> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > 0xc6efb000-0xc6efbfff,0xc6ef9f00-0xc6ef9fff irq 10 at device 9.0 on pci1 > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > sym1: <875> port 0x2400-0x24ff mem > 0xc6efa000-0xc6efafff,0xc6ef9e00-0xc6ef9eff irq 11 at device 9.1 on pci1 > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > pci1: <Matrox MGA Millennium 2064W graphics accelerator> at 13.0 irq 5 > pci0: <unknown card> (vendor=0x0e11, dev=0xa0f0) at 14.0 > pcib2: <IBM 82351 PCI-PCI bridge> at device 18.0 on pci0 > pci2: <PCI bus> on pcib2 > ida0: <Compaq SMART-2SL array controller> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > 0xb8000000-0xbfffffff,0xc6ffff00-0xc6ffffff irq 15 at device 0.0 on pci2 > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=4.44 > idad0: <Compaq Logical Drive> on ida0 > idad0: 26029MB (53309280 sectors), blocksize=512 > isab0: <Intel 82371AB PCI to ISA bridge> at device 20.0 on pci0 > isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 > atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 ATA33 controller> port 0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on > pci0 > ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 > ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 > uhci0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> irq 0 at device 20.2 on > pci0 > uhci0: Could not map ports > device_probe_and_attach: uhci0 attach returned 6 > piix0: <Intel 82371AB Power management controller> at device 20.3 on pci0 > eisa0: <EISA bus> on motherboard > mainboard0: <CPQ0689 (System Board)> on eisa0 slot 0 > orm0: <Option ROMs> at iomem > 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 > pmtimer0 on isa0 > fdc0: <NEC 72065B or clone> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 > fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 > atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 > kbd0 at atkbd0 > psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0 > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 > sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0 > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 > sio0: type 16550A > sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 > sio1: type 16550A > APIC_IO: Testing 8254 interrupt delivery > APIC_IO: routing 8254 via IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 > SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! > acd0: CDROM <CD-ROM CDU701-Q> at ata0-master PIO4 > Waiting 15 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > sa0 at sym0 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 > sa0: <HP C1537A L708> Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device > sa0: 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 16) > Mounting root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a > IP packet filtering initialized, divert disabled, rule-based forwarding > enabled, default to deny, logging disabled > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): WRITE FILEMARKS. CDB: 10 0 0 0 2 0 > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): Deferred Error: MEDIUM ERROR asc:3b,0 > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): Sequential positioning error > billmax# > billmax# bonnie > File './Bonnie.12377', size: 104857600 > Writing with putc()...done > Rewriting...done > Writing intelligently...done > Reading with getc()...done > Reading intelligently...done > Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential > Input-- --Random-- > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per > Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec > %CPU > 100 6191 27.7 6202 8.6 7269 13.6 14247 100.0 122401 99.8 > 12267.0 199.0 > billmax# > > Notice on the FASTER machine, running FreeBSD 6.1, it runs CPU at 39.4 > percent. The SLOWER > machine, running FreeBSD 4.11, runs CPU at 27%. Granted, disk I/O is a bit > faster on the newer version > of FreeBSD. But of course, it should be - the disk driver and OS is newer. > The dirty little secret is that > while you might get that higher throughput speed on the disk, it takes a LOT > higher CPU percentage, > EVEN ON a machine that's 100Mhz faster. > > Sure, if you got gigahertz to play with - so what? But, this matters a > great deal on older hardware > where you DON'T got that. > > Now, granted this is nothing more than seat of the pants testing, it isn't a > controlled test. > But it is very typical of the results that people get when they try > performance testing. > Your results on CPU usage are useless. Besides the difference in CPU speed there is at least one more major problem you missed, the 4.11 system is SMP and the 6.1 system is not. anyways... Here's what I'd like to know. What's your problem Danial? After two years of trolling I still don't know what the root of your complaint is. I'm willing to discuss this (as I've always been) provided you, and everyone else, can stay civil. I would also like to run some of these tests you keep referring to. -- BSD Podcasts @: http://bsdtalk.blogspot.com/ http://freebsdforall.blogspot.com/
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