From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 17:24:05 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A35106564A for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:24:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtpout017.mac.com (asmtpout017.mac.com [17.148.16.92]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005168FC08 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:24:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from iphone-5.jnpr.net (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) by asmtp017.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KHF001WKMZZ2N00@asmtp017.mac.com> for arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Gordon Tetlow In-reply-to: <4e571dd70904010928w1900ca9ey740f256c344cdd57@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:23:58 -0700 References: <8321954E-5CFF-45F9-9F87-BE83659E4C8D@mac.com> <4e571dd70904010928w1900ca9ey740f256c344cdd57@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: FreeBSD Arch Subject: Re: On errno X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:24:05 -0000 On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Marcel Moolenaar > wrote: > Oh, and yes: I have been thinking about localization of the kernel. > While I don't see this to be urgent or critical to FreeBSD itself, > I can see a "market" for it. > > This is an interesting discussion in light of the recent article > about the "Ugly American Programmer." Basically it says that > programmers all understand English (or we can basically expect them > to), so as long as the information is for programmers (user/kernel > barrier qualifies in my mind), is it hugely important? Errors are never for programmers. They are for programs or users. Programs work less well on strings, especially when those strings are "designed" to be printed and thus targeted towards users. Interpretation of such error messages is just painful. On top of that, the user may want a localized message. When arguments in the discussion on i18n or l10n focus on the developer, the argument is flawed by definition and pretty much useless. Only when users are considered in such discussions will you have a meaningful discussion. Thus, when a developer claims that i18n is pointless, you know that the statement can be ignored, for it puts the developer at the center of the universe and not the user. This is still assuming that we write an OS for users and not for developers. The assumption may be false... If we were to write a compiler, the "Ugly American Programmer." article would apply. Writing an OS, I would say that it applies partially at best (one can make a distinction between operators and users, and operators tend to prefer english AFAICT). Personally I'd like to think that that we write an OS for users. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com