From nobody Tue Sep 3 18:25:19 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WyvF86bR7z5TkJP for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 18:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com (mail-pg1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WyvF8436Tz4P9j for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2024 18:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-7cd8afc9ff3so4497048a12.0 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 11:25:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1725387931; x=1725992731; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Pc+6KUPpLBaAUsiBM7MelY6IvznWV7Tw5pFuT+geQww=; b=IzAaz5nawodzli6iXZ/CcZFmXhtWx4jO3VQ6yvh6EcixbLXbtXRqHxn5PSwYS6/eLd 6VfBwyqiZ4RWW3l3j6HD0i5lGHkJKzPzvYWro6TX1v11x3/3e4wMfhj6R6IvAmNDazDG L9zKJSYi7JJOdgIIfEfnQQbSVZvqbfG72EwkcehdmBUzTaqs2HdmaqasIR0dEwboBH3S iA7JJlH9hQuGUi3uSA/tCx+1EhasK7ih/rizvETDfpSxKzCJVLMDzUYHcc5tMBFRy/r5 fzNIbrLKjqZfj5urj+PPU7+yl2VzC31BY4ek+wC606nU4m+fE+X5PMsAvR/hjfkuLIT0 u+0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725387931; x=1725992731; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Pc+6KUPpLBaAUsiBM7MelY6IvznWV7Tw5pFuT+geQww=; b=N5M+IjT/O4is4+mDZQOr0WESyqp6lXNlWWKlRUCiHfy7yHM702d8UqVwuTOrzCbJD+ sCq2BldN61pA46nONDmNCPxlT3XXDk7ZXrlU0jPrsV/hFGIBJJwgHnIXXb2sMZ8s9BgU rJzUWZmuBhf0i/TW1Nhl5/Z/TLywsn3HhqXBzbi86eZiO+8f/VTYmMXD71hg7KXwZSMa 3RkH4J9xqwn8DQ2XsilD/SABydNghWM14b2GSjLSnCqNIECnbcZT+KB9pTL58sAaxQA8 3sL6CX0ci3n73nN5RPle92g4mSK3cseypNWy1/FdWitngwfdr+1rAkdLAwkoITsrGEAA Yg0Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVR+c6gDggGoFWgme1I1YEK0oGwd1HJN/YYrB5dIK7BqUgoWmYBLykU5ZkaXgEMeOWejxvUgsNGF5z9vVW030s=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwoCZqWi3sTnTOdGkebe9L7k3wirsC3cGLEzacCQkWyULjfpU65 Q2G7cVhqohStQHUt5+boO7pLLVx5wXqLXdVEcBBuBjB534dMXZpRoCFSr96E1gc0z6BfzoD3C8e hcW4WbnRYwyKq5Rm3K+bvrmnokmaa8+6qroM5Rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF/r7PztvZTlvIb61erWtjWm/iWxJMJqKLMuNELEBxfT8pzRiJhouaqvbutvXRwR8TWsMrUVdXddXUbcoFN0I4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4e0f:b0:2d8:73ba:9444 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2d873ba9619mr22992907a91.5.1725387930899; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 11:25:30 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 12:25:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) To: Alan Somers Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8aed506213b2e97" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WyvF8436Tz4P9j --000000000000b8aed506213b2e97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 12:18=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers w= rote: > On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrot= e: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > >> > >> As part of the migration, we yank LLVM out of the src. > > > > > >> > >> "pkg upgrade" also upgrade kernel and userland packages - Welcome to > >> the century of the fruitbat. > > > > > >> > >> And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask? > > > > > > pkgbase is the path forward. It is the future. We are better off puttin= g > all our > > horses behind that effort so we can make it the default install in 15.0= . > > > > Once we have that, this whole debate becomes moot, for the most part. > > Userland in rust can compete with userland in C. And with go, python, e= tc > > for whatever does the job the best. If rust is so much better, then > people > > will use it, otherwise they will use the C version. > > How will pkgbase handle the private interface problem? For example, > libifconfig and the /dev/cam/ctl ioctls are both unstable. A port > that uses one of those and is built for FreeBSD 14.0 won't necessarily > work for 14.1. As long as those interfaces' consumers are all within > src there's no problem, but if they move to ports then they'll need to > be rebuilt everytime the libifconfig or kernel port, respectively, > gets rebuilt. > Ah yes. That ABI would have to become stable on stable branches, just like all other ABIs we support. Otherwise, you have to build for all possibilities, which is tricky, or you have to have targeted binaries, which is tedious and error prone, especially for people who are running -stable instead of a release point. Absent a stable ABI, all bets are off. I'm surprised it's not more stable: the rest of CAM is certainly ABI stable across multiple major FreeBSD releases. pkg is close to providing the per-minor-release thing to try to solve the drm-kmod / virtualbox .ko issues. This is one of the features that would need to be fixed, imho, for pkgbase. Though mostly that's because of the port .ko problem. Warner --000000000000b8aed506213b2e97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 12:18=E2=80=AF= PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.o= rg> wrote:
imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 9:32=E2=80=AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>= wrote:
>>
>> As part of the migration, we yank LLVM out of the src.
>
>
>>
>> "pkg upgrade" also upgrade kernel and userland packages = - Welcome to
>> the century of the fruitbat.
>
>
>>
>> And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask?
>
>
> pkgbase is the path forward. It is the future. We are better off putti= ng all our
> horses behind that effort so we can make it the default install in 15.= 0.
>
> Once we have that, this whole debate becomes moot, for the most part.<= br> > Userland in rust can compete with userland in C. And with go, python, = etc
> for whatever does the job the best. If rust is so much better, then pe= ople
> will use it, otherwise they will use the C version.

How will pkgbase handle the private interface problem?=C2=A0 For example, libifconfig and the /dev/cam/ctl ioctls are both unstable.=C2=A0 A port
that uses one of those and is built for FreeBSD 14.0 won't necessarily<= br> work for 14.1.=C2=A0 As long as those interfaces' consumers are all wit= hin
src there's no problem, but if they move to ports then they'll need= to
be rebuilt everytime the libifconfig or kernel port, respectively,
gets rebuilt.

Ah yes. That ABI would ha= ve to become stable on stable branches,
just like all other ABIs = we support. Otherwise, you have to build for all
possibilities, w= hich is tricky, or you have to have targeted binaries,=C2=A0 which
is tedious and error prone, especially for people who are running -stable=
instead of a release point. Absent a stable ABI, all bets are of= f. I'm surprised
it's not more stable: the rest of CAM is= certainly ABI stable across multiple
major FreeBSD releases.

pkg is close to providing the per-minor-release thing= to try to solve the
drm-kmod / virtualbox .ko issues.
=
This is one of the features that would need to be fixed, imh= o, for pkgbase.
Though mostly that's because of the port .ko = problem.

Warner

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