From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG  Mon Jul 18 16:00:19 2005
Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG>
X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org
Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org
Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EF316A41C
	for <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:00:19 +0000 (GMT)
	(envelope-from freebsd-stable-local@be-well.ilk.org)
Received: from mail23.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail23.sea5.speakeasy.net
	[69.17.117.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD6543D46
	for <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:00:18 +0000 (GMT)
	(envelope-from freebsd-stable-local@be-well.ilk.org)
Received: (qmail 18611 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 16:00:18 -0000
Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org)
	([66.92.78.145])
	(envelope-sender <freebsd-stable-local@be-well.ilk.org>)
	by mail23.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP
	for <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; 18 Jul 2005 16:00:18 -0000
Received: by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix, from userid 1147)
	id 4245F30; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:00:17 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: lowell@be-well.ilk.org
To: Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de>
References: <20050715224650.GA48516@outcold.yadt.co.uk>
	<200507152342.j6FNg5Tx015427@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net>
	<20050716133710.GA71580@outcold.yadt.co.uk>
	<20050716141630.GB752@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net>
	<1121530912.17757.32.camel@zappa.Chelsea-Ct.Org>
	<44k6jqof72.fsf@be-well.ilk.org>
	<20050716172632.GG752@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net>
From: Lowell Gilbert <freebsd-stable-local@be-well.ilk.org>
Date: 18 Jul 2005 12:00:16 -0400
In-Reply-To: <20050716172632.GG752@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net>
Message-ID: <44u0is6r5b.fsf@be-well.ilk.org>
Lines: 19
User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: dangerous situation with shutdown process
X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code <freebsd-stable.freebsd.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable>, 
	<mailto:freebsd-stable-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable>
List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>
List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-stable-request@freebsd.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable>,
	<mailto:freebsd-stable-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:00:19 -0000

Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> writes:

> Lowell Gilbert wrote:
> 
> >Well, break it down a little bit.  If an ATA drive properly implements
> >the cache flush command, then none of the ongoing discussion is
> 
> Are you sure this is the case? Are there sequence points in softupdates
> where it issues a flush request and by this guarantees fs integrity?

No, you're right.  I meant write completions, not cache flushes.
I don't know of any drives that do one properly and not the other, 
but they're certainly not the same thing.

> I've read thru McKusick's paper in search for an answer but haven't
> found any. All I've read so far on mailing lists and from googling
> was that softupdates doesn't work if the wb-cache is enabled.

On a lot of "ATA" drives that don't implement the spec properly.