From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 8 21:35:53 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6178D16A421 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:35:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leonard_lilla@gmx.net) Received: from relais.videotron.ca (relais.videotron.ca [24.201.245.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3387313C4BF for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 21:35:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leonard_lilla@gmx.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Received: from tower1xp ([24.200.22.162]) by VL-MH-MR001.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-4.01 (built Aug 3 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0JR700COYINIIC40@VL-MH-MR001.ip.videotron.ca> for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:35:45 -0500 (EST) Message-id: <0JR700COZINIIC40@VL-MH-MR001.ip.videotron.ca> From: Leonard Lilla To: "'Heiko Wundram (Beenic)'" Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:34:05 -0500 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <200711082132.46466.wundram@beenic.net> Thread-index: AcgiRm6tOly3J1RxTSKeyRFVeXO8AAACBZpQ X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:41:32 +0000 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: install X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:35:53 -0000 The ("lower ranks" of the) FreeBSD audience generally have a much more mature view on this. They're very helpful, if you ask them questions you might have, but they don't see it as an evangelical mission to keep you = with "their"=20 system, because they don't need you to look up to them. If you like it, = be our guest and stay, if you don't, leave at your leisure. If you ask, be aware that we're all just acquaintances here, so don't overdo your = welcome by being rude or taking the arm when all you're given is the little = finger. This is not an elitist attitude, it's simply the grown-up thing to do. FreeBSD for most of us simply is a tool to get a job done (and a hell of = a good tool at that for me), and not some kind of pissing-contest between youths. If you look at the "higher ranks" of the Linux developers, = you'll see the same phenomenon: Linux is a means to an end, and probably besides ESR, for = most of them not a holy mission. Absolutely, and that is what I had heard about your community and that = is what I wanted to find out. I wanted to get away from children, childish behavior, and poor attitude and non-standardized environment most open source Linux have become. Again, this is very, very pleasant and I will assure you that I will not over step my boundaries again. Thank you for the invite, L=E9onard Lilla -----Original Message----- From: Heiko Wundram (Beenic) [mailto:wundram@beenic.net]=20 Sent: November 8, 2007 3:33 PM To: Leonard Lilla Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: install Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2007 20:11:14 schrieben Sie: > Wow, yeah sorry man... I did not even realize you guys were having a > funding drive. Ouch, that sucks, probably not the support you were = looking > for. Just for the reference, do you actually know what Open Source really is? What=20 its good sides are, and what the bad sides are? Basically, even in open source software (like FreeBSD), you get nothing = for=20 free. Either: 1) you need it so badly that you do it yourself or pay someone else to = do it for you, or 2) you _kindly_ ask other people to do it for you _for free_ (always remember=20 that!) by giving constructive feedback and them implementing it with = taking=20 your feedback into account because they need it/want to implement it = anyway, but 3) that simply doesn't work in the rant(ish) kind of way you gave = feedback. In the second case, you're not guaranteed that anybody will actually = take the=20 time to implement what you would like to see in the system, because they = may (and most probably will) have a completely different prioritization of = the=20 multitude of open things to take into consideration in building a = functional and stable operating system. > But I have heard some great things about FreeBSD as a server. Now I=20 > saw that there was a 'dummy downed' version and I thought I would give = it a > go. And man, that was not pleasant. Sure, fine, it wasn't pleasant for you. We've heard that now. I personally couldn't care less (and wouldn't be a volunteer to take on = any=20 form of redesign of the installer), because I had absolutely no problems with=20 the installation process when I first installed FreeBSD about half a = year ago=20 _after reading the manual_ (yes, I'm a sort of freshman to *BSD too) and = neither for the multitude of times since then (well, to be fair: I = didn't go the 2-CD-way yet, I always did a net-install). I switched to FreeBSD because of licensing issues with the Bluetooth = stack of=20 Linux (and especially the BlueZ-userland, because every, even the basic=20 system headers, are licensed under the GPL), because I develop, amongst other=20 development for the mobile segment, commercial Bluetooth applications as = a=20 day-job, and for me it's most certainly not the installer that's a = concern,=20 but the Bluetooth subsystem. Guess what would happen if I were to beg = the=20 Bluetooth maintainer of FreeBSD at every turn to implement functionality = I=20 need (or to fix that which is partially "broken" or incomplete in = FreeBSD=20 [sorry Maksim, if you're reading this, I most certainly don't mean to=20 belittle your work on the BT stack by this, but I'm talking about = missing SCO=20 support and such]), or would simply whine on the list about how FreeBSD = is so=20 utterly bad because its Bluetooth support isn't as "enhanced" as the = Linux=20 one: noone else would react positively to my whining either, because = most=20 probably they don't need it. Anyway, after having the first and second look at the system (because of = FreeBSD's much more liberal licensing) and evaluating whether it was sensible=20 to build on that which was already finished, I sat down and started to=20 implement my additional requirements, and after some time even switched = my=20 desktop to FreeBSD (from Gentoo, which I was the ultimate fanboy of = before=20 that for quite some time), because I was starting to like it. All of my=20 tweaking is possible because FreeBSD is open source, but with it comes = the=20 price of having to lay hands on the system in case I'm not satisfied = with it. If the second look at FreeBSD would've turned out to discourage me from going=20 further, I would've most certainly turned away, and I guess noone on the list=20 would've shed a tear even if I'd have written a mail like yours giving people=20 the "hard" goodbye. And, just to get back to what I wrote in the last mail: if you're not = happy=20 with FreeBSD, do yourself a favor and turn away. And do it with dignity. = But if you decide to stay, be welcome, but if you feel something needs = fixing,=20 don't whine about it, but take it in your own hands. By the multitude of ways=20 you can do so (PR, anyone?). > If I may help you ask? Sure. I would=20 > suggest the team working on the UI for the install to think about = their > action following a condition a little better. That would not result in = the > user not having to find themselves in frustrating situations like the = one I > was in. Being that I chose various port options. At the end the = install > shows a list to review, containing categories and sub categories. = After all > selection is complete and install is in progress, I was prompted for = CD one > as if it needed the info for the categories list, and then it would = ask for > CD two to acquire the info for each subcategory. Just have them create = a > list kept in memory with all port requirements and build port install = from > CD2 using list from CD1 in memory. I don't know that much about > programming, but I do believe that you must be able to do that, right? So it seems you do know something about programming and about UI = designing.=20 Would it be too much to ask to actually take the time to read the = sysinstall source (which is pretty well readable by the way), and to check why the=20 decisions were taken as they were? And to prepare a patch or just a=20 recommended screen order for sysinstall, which you can then submit via a = PR=20 request? Maybe someone takes the time to implement what you request, but most probably,=20 it'll then be because they wanted to implement it anyway (because they = found the install similarily irritating). > Well, again... I do apologize for my comments, but I had to know > what kind of community it is that I am presented with. I must say that your > response shows a very interesting aspect of your community that I have been > hearing about. Perhaps I will continue to stay informed about your > community. I really don't know what you're trying to tell me by this, but I guess you're=20 trying to say something like the following, which I think is very true = (and=20 was something that made me stay with FreeBSD on the second look I = mentioned=20 above): Linux tries to be the better Windows and development efforts (by a lot = of=20 people) are driven by the desire to improve usability and simplicity of = the=20 system, simply because lots of developers take satisfaction out of=20 being "better" than Windows and equally "accessible" even for the=20 computer-agnostic. It's basically the wish of being "1337", cool, whatever (because of = using=20 a "non-standard" system, thereby being non-conformant), combined with = the=20 desire of the individual developer to "shine" in the community with his=20 contribution to get some extra recognition in his "3733t" circles. = That's why=20 you'll easily get (the "lower ranks" of) Linux developers and users to = react to your kind of comments with all kinds of replies, ranging from most = stupid back-flaming and "M$-fanboy" name-calling up to offers to help you in = the=20 process of installation such as coming over to visit you, and lots of = other=20 things equally over-the-top (at least for my taste). The ("lower ranks" of the) FreeBSD audience generally have a much more mature=20 view on this. They're very helpful, if you ask them questions you might have,=20 but they don't see it as an evangelical mission to keep you with "their" = system, because they don't need you to look up to them. If you like it, = be=20 our guest and stay, if you don't, leave at your leisure. If you ask, be aware=20 that we're all just acquaintances here, so don't overdo your welcome by being=20 rude or taking the arm when all you're given is the little finger. This is not an elitist attitude, it's simply the grown-up thing to do. FreeBSD=20 for most of us simply is a tool to get a job done (and a hell of a good = tool at that for me), and not some kind of pissing-contest between youths. If = you look at the "higher ranks" of the Linux developers, you'll see the same=20 phenomenon: Linux is a means to an end, and probably besides ESR, for = most of=20 them not a holy mission. PS: I'm posting this to questions@, too (even though you didn't with = your mail=20 to me), because I think this discussion deserves a broader audience than just=20 a private mail exchange. PPS: Don't understand the term "lower rank" and "higher rank" in a wrong way:=20 every community has "celebrities" in one way or another, even FreeBSD. I = personally would most certainly qualify myself as "lower rank." Others = (for=20 example comitters, easily recognizable by the @freebsd.org mail-address) most=20 certainly are "high rankers." --=20 Heiko Wundram Product & Application Development