From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 1:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A63D37B409 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22709; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:07 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15ApLm-0004p3-00 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:06 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips Message-ID: <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:42PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I'll throw out a few comments on this you may or may not agree with. <...> > I've even seen this with people working on servers at the co-locate that > is at the ISP that I work at, invariably the folks running BSD when they > have a problem they research it themselves then when they figure out what's > wrong they fix it and we never hear from them. The Linux people on the > other hand come running and wanting us to tell them whats wrong with the > least > little thing, and I can't tell you how many times I've asked people with > Red Hat servers "Have you looked on Red Hat's website and seen if this is > mentioned" and gotten blank stares, then I spend 5 minutes digging up the > fix off the Linux sites and they think I'm some kind of god. And I don't > even run it on any of our servers!!!! I think that you very much got a point here... but this is a two-sided fact: While it is undoubtedly a good thing that BSD admins are knowledgeable and don't require others to spoon-feed them, this "research for yourself and get over it" attitude also prevents IMHO that quality docs get written by those who really understand the issues... and this is not necessarily good. While on Linux every little achievement one makes is cause to write up a HOWTO (albeit in very varying styles and degree of professionalism, sometimes you have the feeling that the guy did not actually understand why he was doing things but merely writes: This is what worked for me, if it does for you great), in BSD land we stick to quality. This is good because when docs actually get written, they are high quality. But there are not many people who could do this for most BSD topics. This in turn means that when you try to "research" for yourself next time, you are often left with "common knowledge" on mailing lists, that are often not even written down anywhere save for some random mail message... not exactly productive. In my opinion, two things need to be done here: - Instead of expecting (as it is tacitly today) that "the guys at the Doc Project" know every topic and write all the good docs by themselves, everybody should write docs (and not just man pages although that is a must) for the areas he/she is knowledgeable in. - Instead of maintaining a sctrict divine between those "in" the project and those "out", we should encourage (as opposed to merely tolerate) new talent who work outside of the official channels (say on various support web sites) so that we have a more steady supply of new contributors, esp because the "old hands" tend to be soaked up in (undoubtedly important) technical discussions instead of writing. Would like to note also that while it may be not the most important for BSD user groups to enjoy big gatherings, the community aspect is very much alive: the mailing list traffic, the very existence of freebsd-chat@ all prove this point. It is not unusual for people with a hobby to pursue it for both the object of it (eg software) and for socializing. Taking out the community aspect would leave little of the FreeBSD project as we know it today. It is interesting to observe the newly-forming xMach project in this respect: although they have only started recently, they already have an explicit community web site. Reading through the threads recently about why the BSD's public profile isn't as high as it could be, I think that this "splendid isolation" may be a reason not only because nobody is going to know what you have unless you tell it and show it, but also because many perceive this exclusive behaviour as elitist and condescending along the lines of: We are the best and we know it but for most of you guys we are just too good. So, instead of trying to define the BSD way by fighting others and expanding on differences of opinion, we should focus on bringing what we have out to the world. Not keeping it for ourselves in dark rooms in lone hacking nights and expecting that people find it and somehow get it from us and if they fail to find us denouncing them in talkback columns as clueless if they prefer to write about what's out there. We need stories that involve BSD, success stories, technical papers, executive reports, and we have to give the feeling to people who happen to check in that "yes you are important" and "yes, we will look into that" (and then do as promised). Even stories like "We used FreeBSD yesterday night at a party to serve the music and it kept ticking the whole night without missing a beat" count since people may ask what the hell that BSD thing is. IMHO, this is the way that would be in-keeping with the BSD way (focus on the important stuff). -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message