From nobody Tue Apr 11 10:45:11 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwjDZ2w56z44d2S for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com (mail-yb1-xb35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwjDX6Nkqz3tv6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dmigX3fz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marietto2008@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marietto2008@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id y186so7612076yby.13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:45:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681209947; x=1683801947; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KkMZ85WaToFuwqhyr+aQgAJ9y5iZ4txG+AVB0aheFZk=; b=dmigX3fz6yE63TFMPK8bx4ZlV8HvjbHDgcxQ/gj6x3WIROu5N7NnK41fZPLsMyzvDE maRcqNYq6AyodR65HDTkjd0SwToL91J9+tGrDArUnOQHuWcxUrNqf4gMM1KiK9qjhqI+ QRZFW8dcWo60LggLmQhVrjX8QpCWDG677DCIcf+EEgjNmDJMJJ/an01KB3Ra3IWt7Xva Muc7B9fj/fQsSnZLO/ucajHRHRKnO1hh2UguIKglIuUHDjYfh2lvb8WVRvTcEaeHQ7FE oqd8ZYMAS0xUmdM7G8aIVnegd7frAj4sieWRVdx3tQnO1mjWUp8SDHbBE+OBzCjgXqHM 7Pgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681209947; x=1683801947; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KkMZ85WaToFuwqhyr+aQgAJ9y5iZ4txG+AVB0aheFZk=; b=uJhY+yxjHVG+yLh6VbLAK17oL17z/s15nIj4WXUoRnurqPGBF4FGpFB3rDC6U6ThYJ cZaEMaR0Xs3/Tjb7ybJKJzJGlGA7135EBwhfWaN5Cvwha219R0prEIPm75b6NK8uY93z ThzG4+MpuftzdMK/SHXvkKQuOHCIjfEJ+8I2nNuywdxaddoTn4As95fIEqyh0C700pVP 4PO1IGXGVRnaUm6newXogoermcUQ2swndf00ZG/y60cis3XKcG9BxFSYjCVudzQ1f6G1 HjCaeKrXUZySGy5mj62g2a7rYeLYWV05wGPbwQFIODCSmQbN9HCuoGjVS9+sKBaXaJV8 Np9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fZd/KuFxb+gBUO/M79sI49MVjLT4xxVA21ugvRSobMVeO1bZ0K Hx1lgG7R/YIPeGFcL3fLsQJuY59ljPIZK8oEBUY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aT4D4xrBo+EFGJ2UKt28ULVck68jUZ0HyKvtKCj1y90VTEdc/X4EjixfucdYIgzlLnevQUQVtUm1ds2VaW5pg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:73ca:0:b0:b8e:dadc:a081 with SMTP id o193-20020a2573ca000000b00b8edadca081mr5653010ybc.5.1681209947477; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:45:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:45:11 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Dave Cottlehuber Cc: freebsd-questions , Tim Preston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b65cd805f90d310e" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwjDX6Nkqz3tv6 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > wrote: > >> On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: >> > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) >> > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you hav= e >> > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a >> > discriminatory attitude. >> >> I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; >> please don't do that. >> >> The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-base= d >> "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people >> have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, >> now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: >> >> - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ >> - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ >> - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 >> >> It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you >> tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. >> >> While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, >> systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any containe= r >> you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all >> of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. >> >> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, >> use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many >> FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. >> It's ok to use different tools in different situations. >> >> A+ >> Dave >> > > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker exper= ience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think = there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It&= #39;s ok to use different tools in different situations.

But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer mean= s often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use ma= ny of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have s= ome different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and= I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it = is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this &quo= t;love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years a= go. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,i= n my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic Fre= eBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change.= They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset = is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or tha= t want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can = run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why sh= ould I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not wid= ely used,ok,developing it i= s not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is = one of those tools. =

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario M= arietto <marietto2008@gmail.co= m> wrote:
For sure there are users / developers that are in the mid= dle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I= 9;m one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers= that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity t= owards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial re= asons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freeb= sd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on= linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because= in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,t= hey work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different opera= ting systems ?
On T= ue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
<= /div>
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023,= at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you= have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like = a
> discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, an= d many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,=
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:

- https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/
- https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/
- https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-contain= ers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85

It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--000000000000b65cd805f90d310e--