Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:45:11 +0200 From: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> To: Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> Cc: freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com>
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--000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail= .com> wrote: > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks= .at> > wrote: > >> On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: >> > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) >> > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you hav= e >> > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a >> > discriminatory attitude. >> >> I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; >> please don't do that. >> >> The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-base= d >> "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people >> have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, >> now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: >> >> - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ >> - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ >> - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 >> >> It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you >> tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. >> >> While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, >> systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any containe= r >> you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all >> of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. >> >> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, >> use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many >> FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. >> It's ok to use different tools in different situations. >> >> A+ >> Dave >> > > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker exper= ience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think = there are many<br><div> FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It&= #39;s ok to use different tools in different situations.</div><div><br></di= v><div>But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer mean= s often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use ma= ny of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have s= ome different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and= I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it = is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this &quo= t;love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years a= go. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,i= n my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic Fre= eBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change.= They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old<span class=3D"gmai= l-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en"> tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset = is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or tha= t want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of</spa= n><span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en"> sectarian mentality. Yes I can = run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why sh= ould I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not wid= ely used,ok,</span><span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en">developing it i= s not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is = one of those tools. </span><span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en"></span>= <span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en"></span><span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc= " lang=3D"en"></span></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D= "ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario M= arietto <<a href=3D"mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com">marietto2008@gmail.co= m</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"= ><div dir=3D"ltr">For sure there are users / developers that are in the mid= dle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I= 9;m one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers= that show a<span lang=3D"en">n exaggerated "love" and fidelity t= owards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial re= asons. I'm a</span><span lang=3D"en"> frequent visitor to various freeb= sd forums and I often read opinions</span><span lang=3D"en"> radicalized on= linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because= in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,t= hey work well,but why not add more and different tools that</span><span lan= g=3D"en"> which would allow the creation of bridges between different opera= ting systems ?</span><span lang=3D"en"></span><span lang=3D"en"></span></di= v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On T= ue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <<a href=3D"mailto= :dch@skunkwerks.at" target=3D"_blank">dch@skunkwerks.at</a>> wrote:<br><= /div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo= rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Tue, 11 Apr 2023,= at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:<br> > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) <br> > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you= have <br> > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like = a <br> > discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br> <br> I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here;<b= r> please don't do that.<br> <br> The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based<b= r> "Open Container" <a href=3D"https://opencontainers.org/" rel=3D"n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://opencontainers.org/</a>; definition, an= d many people<br> have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,= <br> now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:<br> <br> - <a href=3D"https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/</a><br>; - <a href=3D"https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"= _blank">https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/</a><br>; - <a href=3D"https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc8= 5" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-contain= ers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85</a><br> <br> It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you<br> tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.<br> <br> While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,<br= > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container<b= r> you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all<br> of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.<br> <br> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,<br> use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many<br= > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.<br> It's ok to use different tools in different situations.<br> <br> A+<br> Dave<br> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br><span>-- </span><br><div dir=3D"lt= r">Mario.<br></div> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br><span class=3D"gmail_signature_pre= fix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Mario.<br></d= iv> --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e--
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