From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Apr 29 14:35:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A517F15914ED; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.blih.net", Issuer "mail.blih.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3703A8524C; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from manu@bidouilliste.com) Received: from mail.blih.net (mail.blih.net [212.83.177.182]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 11eeb002; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=pd7/fUDtndS60t3fDY8gFbr+Two=; b=AqXJs+17NHV0FINgAotTesH59c+B 109keWOxWL1+TMOSF+NDVQxB4H+HXTzoufryQIkVE+TtguwWQ9iHIhyNKMxw6DMp RScGGZ0hI8U8OtkWinOEOQxUm/tzAs8uQptSM4NCVj/OZ0h6MVS6SKnAwxTN4a1H ENep/QNErV197Gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=bidouilliste.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s= mail; b=n3JmpHsLPTGSrGwCTV7BGFwAwOPpILae22RBID1ZZiMRhksxrNHRWKqz pWHc2ldbxvBXtXPy51rxP3LbvvXIpZOYQcSKynauU421jQ9Ebow1gQW5B3cJjAYY 2OyQpeurrNKXkP5OnQLesEspie7y6WNyOknQ6b0jg2MyAELY2ag= Received: from skull.home.blih.net (ip-9.net-89-3-105.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.105.9]) by mail.blih.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id d0d7e356 TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:28:47 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Kris Moore Cc: FreeBSD Stable , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base Message-Id: <20190429162847.a32262b6073f5523bdbe0ed4@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: References: <002901d4fdfb$e52eb890$af8c29b0$@ixsystems.com> <20190429141239.f9de62f6b6721112d7143cf6@bidouilliste.com> <20190429155522.81dcc291a6b252884219de1e@bidouilliste.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3703A8524C X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mail header.b=AqXJs+17; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.177.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:212.83.177.182/32]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[trueos.org.multi.uribl.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mx-backup.blih.net]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.39)[ip: (-0.85), ipnet: 212.83.160.0/19(2.96), asn: 12876(-0.17), country: FR(-0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.160.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.92)[0.924,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bidouilliste.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.90)[0.897,0]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:35:30 -0000 On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:05:59 -0400 Kris Moore wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:55 AM Emmanuel Vadot > wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400 > > Kris Moore wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kris, > > > > > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > FreeBSD Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and > > > > 13-current > > > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images > > > > which > > > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command > > directly. > > > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement, > > we've > > > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and > > let > > > > us > > > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that > > page > > > > going > > > > > forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your > > > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to > > > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation. > > > > > > > > - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and > > > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor > > > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and > > > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase. > > > > > > > > > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It > > > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are > > > updated at same time. > > > > > > > Which could never be imported into FreeBSD. > > > > Not suggesting it should be. Just information on how we solved that problem > in our own appliance / platforms. For FreeBSD it would need some tooling > still to handle this style of updating, regardless of which pkg base is > used. > > And for what it's worth, FreeBSD is all the poorer for not being able to > bring modern language based tools into the base. Personally I'm hoping the > shift to base-packages makes this a moot point since the idea of 'what is > base' can be diluted to just a manifest of what gets installed out of box. > Just my 2C on the matter though :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for > > > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs > > > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be > > > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is > > > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested). > > > > > > > > > > See above. > > > > You can selectively update os/kernel and reboot before doing rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your > > > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need > > > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose > > > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us > > > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing. > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll > > get > > > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one. > > > > Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file > > in /usr/lib/debug/boot/ > > I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in // > > (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like > > describe here : > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues > > in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point. > > > > > Incorrect, os/kernel-debug installs /boot/kernel-debug which is (on > 13-CURRENT) the Witness enabled kernel. os/kernel-debug-symbols are the > /usr/lib/debug bits. I only see kernel-20190420203550_1.txz and kernel-debug-20190420203550.txz in https://pkg.trueos.org/pkg/freebsd-pkgbase/FreeBSD%3A13%3Aamd64/latest/All/ and kernel-debug only contain the debug files. If I'm not looking in the right directory please correct me. > > > > > > > > > > > I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if > > > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those > > > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while > > > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and > > > > will not be deleted in the user computer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this > > direction. > > > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us, > > > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully. > > > > Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags > > that causes problems ? > > > > > I may have to pick Miwi's brain on this, but I believe some of the issues > we saw were when introducing flags such as WITHOUT_RADIUS. Additionally > there is a runtime problem to solve. I.E. if you change flags mid-stream, > and user updates, there was no clean way on pkg-side to remove those > already installed granular packages. Not without external tooling anyway. > > > > > > > -- > > Emmanuel Vadot > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Emmanuel Vadot