Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:05:49 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <zen@buddhist.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990329140549.00903d60@mail.bfm.org> In-Reply-To: <199903291832.KAA01972@pau-amma.whistle.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990326093033.00919230@mail.bfm.org>
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At 10:32 29-03-1999 -0800, David Wolfskill wrote: >>But when I actually want to accomplish something, I have no choice but to >>boot Windows. Not because I like it but because I know how to use it. And >>when I don't, I can always figure it out. > >Curious. Different strokes & all that, I suppose. No, not different strokes. What I meant was that I have worked in Windows environment for years, so I am familiar with it. That does not imply that I prefer Windows. But when I need to accomplish something quickly, it is easier for me--at this time--to just do it in Windows than to try figure out how to do it in Unix. After I do it, I then do try to figure it out, so eventually I can do everything in Unix. But I am not there yet. > I'm subscribed to -newbies because dealing with PC >hradware is a very weird and unusual experience for me.) For me it is the exact opposite. I used to program under DOS for a long time, then migrated to Windows, now trying it with FreeBSD. >Well, a given command will need to have a name in order to be (directly) >usable. You generally have the capability for making up your own names >for (collections of) commands, either by defining an "alias" to the >"shell" (more on this in a moment) or by putting together "shell >scripts". Yes, of course. But before you create an alias, you need to know the real name. :-) When I think of it, I did not know all DOS commands when I got my first DOS machine. It took me a while to learn DOS, and it will take a while to learn Unix. That's just the way it is. :-) >>And even when I do, it seems the man page is always written in some >>foreign language that only outwardly resembles English. > >Something a little more nearly concrete might help pin-point what the >nature of the problem is. For example, citing one particular example of >such a man page may narrow the field down to the point that trying to >fix the problem could become feasible. I wrote that in the context of a general chat, not trying to solve a specific problem, just talking about the steep learning curve. :-) >>Apropos usually does not help me much either. > >For any particular reason? Pretty much the same as man. You need to get the right word to apropos to get the right answer. In other words, it is probably quite useful when you are already experienced with Unix. If you are fishing for an answer without having a clue what exactly you are looking for, it just spits out a hundred cryptic words with no explanation. So it is more useful to refresh your memory about things you already know (and perhaps just do not remember the exact spelling of) than a learning tool for a newbie. >Many folks are willing to help; that's one of the nice things about the >UNIX community in general, and the FreeBSD community in particular. Yes, thank goodness for that! But >no one *can* help unless you at least make the effort to identify the >nature of the mis-match between your expectations and your perceptions. > >Few folks here (especially me) can read your mind. Well, I was not asking a question. I was simply describing my experience with learning about Unix (this is a CHAT list for newbies, isn't it). I prefer to try figure it out first, and only if I cannot, then I ask. >>Just days ago I have installed XFree86 3.3.3.1. Its interface is >>reminiscent of Windows 1.0, > >I have no idea what "Windows 1.0" refers to, but referring to a singular >interface for X11 is rather like referring to "the shell" in UNIX: you >can pick and choose. Windows 1.0 referred to the first release of MS Windows. It was ugly. > At this point in your narrative, few folks are >likely to have much of a cluse as to what "window manager" (if any) you >chose to use with X11. I haven't chosen one yet. I was talking about the default manager, twm, that comes with X11. I don't think I can really choose much right now as it keeps locking up on me, presumably because I do not have enough memory. Frankly, that surprised me though. I sorta believed that if I had enough memory to run Windows 95 with Netscape Communicator, it would be enough for X11 with a single xterm and the xclock, but it appears not to be the case. I have asked for help from the X11 people, sent them a detailed description of my system and my X11 configuration, but, alas, did not even received an acknowledgement. >>and it locks up my system either immediately or >>in a few minutes (mouse cursor disappears, ctl-alt-backspace does not >>work), and the only way out is by turning the system off, ouch). > >That sounds like a fairly serious misconfiguration, all right. And yes, >UNIX (in general) and FreeBSD (in particular) tend to fail to flat-out >not work in such cases; rather, they'll generally try to carry on as best >they can. One of the times when it locks up immediately is if I manage to move the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen. The cursor disappears, and no further movement of the mouse can bring it back. At that point ctl-alt-backspace does not respond either. Another sure way to get locked up is to move the cursor over the clock and click on it. Incidentally, it happens under KDE too, even though the xterm window does not lose focus, my keystrokes are no longer accepted. It appears that if I do not move the mouse, or just confine it to the xterm window, I can work indefinitely. Of course, there is not much reason to load X11 just to use a single xterm... I tried it two ways: 1. Not loading moused and configuring it as Microsoft mouse at /dev/cuaa0, 2. Loading moused and configuring it as SysMouse at /dev/sysmouse. Makes no difference (no problem under FreeBSD console with moused running, which is the main reason I suspect the problem stems from not having enough memory and not from misconfiguration). You mentioned some books... I am wondering if you, or anyone, knows of a good introduction to windows managers for programmers, one that could get you started in writing your own windows manager. Secondly, a good intro to X11 programming. I have read what I have available (Unix Unleashed, Internet Edition, has a nice description of the basics). It is clearly the same basic principle as programming MS Windows (I mean the client/server model, and things like that). It appears to me that MS pretty much took the X11 idea and ported it to DOS (the idea, not all the nuances of the implementation). And since I am quite experienced in programming MS Windows, it might actually be easier for me to learn how to write X11 programs than how to configure X11 properly. :-) But I need a good reference book to its library (or libraries). Cheers, Adam P.S. Being a programmer is certainly helpful. When I first started with FreeBSD, and could not find the right command to do something, it was often easier just to write my own program to do it! For example, I wrote a program called tuc (Text to Unix Conversion) to let me convert DOS text files to Unix text files and back, simply because I needed to convert some files and could not find any help with apropos. I even placed it on my ftp site (ftp://ftp.whizkidtech.net/unix/tuc/), and several other newbies were quite happy about it, while old pros assured me no one would ever need it, hehehe! --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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