From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 29 01:58:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994192CB3DD for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 01:58:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49BhVl21GZz4Z3X for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 01:58:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id w6so947976ilg.1 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:58:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1zx440aX8YmZK+FMsos4x1mCSQht1vAC6qfgbYtrFU0=; b=SxDqs3xAwvpFEHYU+AB2NkjgjnofcDw99w5I4xq6CyIhsNNO5x2BIyKgz8cR4ibtiI ta9mgbf1I6QBXG+BtK1cy3cld3l3xFeUWDrBeZb7FvJYPoQT2YVe60VugieEWt9lSzun ZSvDgzYF+++jmD3p4HY1A6L04mTG6hx0+n74lrElYjxYWSLPsIejxzu2f+5B8Y3LRLxn UqpQKxVNHM01C3yudOoSXIYM9hoxnjGmNYGMHLaGv98hEo7wmeTbjF2xNpY/SYGgdbSS d+Ds+YeoHRFLrKYr2zdKZIghTMsZJbxuCa0YIB+Soh1DP/bFSj2jzJ+gSvP0Rjhn/s+C XmQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1zx440aX8YmZK+FMsos4x1mCSQht1vAC6qfgbYtrFU0=; b=shFBNxG2UCHVG3xcAHnjhpiB7t+l1iiQoUbG43iHV4ZCOvgbPrGcNBN/vt3NYiOKaI muxEF/sPqv+MKaSIwsTdOq/IsqbVbXILAw2kGCRNwIjZwM13w6XaRxOo4lH9Tcv4ix84 VByMZGeTsUNqp2ntFH3+b+8qWLS/+CsgSdNfdEtwclP8kXLu3GmRiUjF9LxEQmiyqvd6 KH/8vA4cQgqPBBKpF4FNJD78R2nGyxmTkIEixEORSdLbwR3gCZH/c/xnn3rjqQCJKHo9 khH/TKNaOTOiCrIt6ufCwO2HOnBL08XUZ/0rb7jBJku+2Ctlbm6fqFeJrVdlJEZ926bP pjOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ3pdygFBHwVX9uFU9ICn4qfpzPtstD6kfU64FL8rXGPtvfkvSy ypGx5jAUCWFPLk8f5HsbSdjOVWFj7Tpc+IVr3vA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJWOC0vm4CxCajJbJc+ijOtdaZALmOb8WSQZM8WcJJ++O1UaT1l87UJHpcT2UtYLhDmg1lc7bZtcHqpvoG1snE= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ca81:: with SMTP id t1mr28636200ilo.187.1588125485661; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:58:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> <762afc18-324a-05ab-cf1b-68de2afea9ae@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200428112734.5028df19@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20200428112734.5028df19@bigus.dream-tech.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 21:57:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: Dave Hayes Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49BhVl21GZz4Z3X X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=SxDqs3xA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.78), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 01:58:08 -0000 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:27 PM Dave Hayes wrote: > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:33:21 -0500 > Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > This will > > not cover spreading of misinformation through well respected mail list > > to my regret allowing itself to be abused. It will not cover people I > > respect and routinely get help from from being abused by disrespectful > > (to name it the mildest) person on this respected mail list. > > I personally find it quite difficult to glean complete information from > moderated mailing lists. What usually happens is that the human bias of the > moderator(s) prevents the dissemination of some information and the mailing > list becomes useless except as a window to the worldviews and information > the > moderators deem worthy. > The other problem with any sort of moderation is my troll is your fine upstanding list member and your troll is my "friend". What I mean is everyone who was calling me a troll (deserved or not) was defending someone who arguably had even ruder behavior then I did. For example while being blunt I made a serious effort to never attack anyone personally. "Only an idiot" does not attack the person directly it is an attack on a mindset/loosely defined group of people while one of the "cool kids" (according to the reaction of a few other people) on the list made very direct and personal attacks on me with comments like "you are not qualified" (without without any attempt to specify I was not qualified in, thus making it a blanket and deeply personally insulting comment). Therefore if you going to label one person a troll based on behavior then you need to (if you are intellectually honest) label all such behavior trollish regardless of source. This requires objectivity to an extremely rare degree, ant thus is very unlikely to be found in any single person/moderator or small group thereof. Also it would require a very specific and detailed list of rules and behavioral expectations to give the moderators a standard to judge by, -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org