Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:34:30 -0700 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 14: Poll armv6 deprecated or removed Message-ID: <CANCZdfo9Q7d5gPVV8HM2rKwk1-CNpKbut%2B7VUCaPt69LpZ4kJg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrZp2vNKfOqmLHKoMm8hSXRYGMLs_cR3okLtF6rJ_t7bA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CANCZdfr_WsHbbeY6FyKxFdx7dOaFEhk%2BiJLYQ6F4rLOUuf-zRQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfquBUCQsxYL83cQoLm2s04qvO%2BOz-h88zYwT2DmXdKKBw@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfrZp2vNKfOqmLHKoMm8hSXRYGMLs_cR3okLtF6rJ_t7bA@mail.gmail.com>
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--0000000000001b264505efbab6e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 12:23 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:48 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > >> Sorry for the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and this fell >> through the cracks. >> >> On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> Given that the number of available and useful armv6 boards has fallen to >>> almost zero, the time has come to look hard at armv6. >>> >>> There's a number of options. >>> >>> 1. Keep it as is. This will only happen if there's a lot more users than >>> we think (and we think there's nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer >>> that would want to run FreeBSD 14). >>> >>> 2. Stop building packages. Given it's small to non-existent user base, >>> it makes no sense to provide a package building service for it. >>> 2a. We should likely do this anyway for all stable branches since it's a >>> net negative in terms of cost/benefit analysis: lots of effort to produce, >>> very little use. >>> >>> 3. Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It's >>> a necessary step in removal. >>> >>> 4. Remove support for armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB >>> and RPi0 users out there. However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few >>> years, and the RPI0's connectivity is severely lacking given no SDIO >>> support. >>> >>> So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which before >>> FreeBSD 15? >>> >>> My vote would be to do 1-4 for 14 including 2a. >>> >> >> After discussing this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, >> etc, I'd like to propose we do the following: >> >> (1) Stop building packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While >> there are some users, they can still use poudriere to build package sets >> themselves. Usage data suggests there's not enough demand for these >> packages. >> (2) Move armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe >> EXTRA_TARGETS=t). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's not >> completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it as >> part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to us and >> have patches that don't regress other platforms. >> (3) After the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build >> support from ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down >> armv6 support as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that >> work to be done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025. >> (4) Immediately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by >> re@. >> (5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/14, >> 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so. >> > > Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier 3. It's been kinda > de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will make the signalling clear > that the runway for armv6 is running out. > As a reminder: this is only the original Raspberry Pi B and the original Pi 0 models. Supported replacements for both of these are available from Raspberry and other vendors. Warner > >> I've send email to re@ asking about #4 and #5. >> >> Warner >> > --0000000000001b264505efbab6e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 12:23 PM Warner Losh <<a href= =3D"mailto:imp@bsdimp.com">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so= lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13,= 2022 at 10:48 AM Warner Losh <<a href=3D"mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target= =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sorry fo= r the lag of a year, it's been a crazy time for me and this fell throug= h the cracks.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D= "gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:37 AM Warner Losh <<a href=3D"mai= lto:imp@bsdimp.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">imp@bsdimp.com</a>= > wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px = 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div= dir=3D"ltr">Greetings,<br><div><br></div><div>Given that the number of ava= ilable and useful armv6 boards has fallen to almost zero, the time has come= to look hard at armv6.</div><div><br></div><div>There's a number of op= tions.</div><div><br></div><div>1. Keep it as is. This will=C2=A0only happe= n if there's a lot more users than we think (and we think=C2=A0there= 9;s nearly zero users of FreeBSD 13 and newer that would want to run FreeBS= D 14).</div><div><br></div><div>2. Stop building packages. Given it's s= mall to non-existent user base, it makes no sense to provide a package buil= ding service for it.</div><div>2a. We should likely do this anyway for all = stable branches since it's a net negative in terms of cost/benefit anal= ysis: lots of effort to produce, very little use.</div><div><br></div><div>= 3. Disconnect it from universe: This will mean it will rot, though. It'= s a necessary step in removal.</div><div><br></div><div>4. Remove support f= or armv6 in base entirely. This will orphan any RPiB and RPi0 users out the= re. However, the RPiB hasn't been sold in a few years, and the RPI0'= ;s connectivity is severely=C2=A0lacking given no SDIO support.</div><div><= br></div><div>So, which of these steps do we do before FreeBSD 14 and which= before FreeBSD 15?</div><div><br></div><div>My vote would be to do 1-4 for= 14 including 2a.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>After discuss= ing this offline and distilling the responses here, on IRC, etc, I'd li= ke to propose we do the following:</div><div><br></div><div>(1) Stop buildi= ng packages for armv6 entirely, on all branches. While there are some users= , they can still use poudriere to build package sets themselves. Usage data= suggests there's not enough demand for these packages.</div><div>(2) M= ove armv6 to an 'EXTRA' target in make universe (eg make universe E= XTRA_TARGETS=3Dt). Powerpc does this today with powerpcspe since it's n= ot completely supported in base. People that care can continue to build it = as part of universe and we'll fix things that are broken, reported to u= s and have patches that don't regress other platforms.</div><div>(3) Af= ter the stable/14 branch next May or June, we'll remove build support f= rom ports (very little) and src. We'll also start to tear down armv6 su= pport as we see it and are working in other areas, and expect that work to = be done before stable/15 is branched in a predicted 2025.</div><div>(4) Imm= ediately stop including armv6 -current snapshots as generated by re@.</div>= <div>(5) re@ won't create armv6 release images or artifacts for stable/= 14, 14.0, etc. Users wishing to build it can do so.</div></div></div></bloc= kquote><div><br></div><div>Oh, and #6: Demote armv6 (but not armv7) to tier= 3. It's been kinda de-facto there for a while anyway, and this will ma= ke the signalling clear that the runway for armv6 is running out.</div></di= v></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au= to">As a reminder: this is only the original Raspberry Pi B and the origina= l Pi 0 models. Supported replacements for both of these are available from = Raspberry and other vendors.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a= uto">Warner</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8= ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I've send e= mail to re@ asking about #4 and #5.</div><div><br></div><div>Warner</div></= div></div> </blockquote></div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000001b264505efbab6e1--
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