From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 27 15:30:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F4716A53B for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:30:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.web-strider.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F065443D5A for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:30:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from coolf89ea26645 (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id k6RFUDx67956; Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Message-ID: <00ab01c6b191$8c8a5c90$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" References: <20060713181058.56349.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002101c6af09$aacf32f0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> <44C51886.6040207@scls.lib.wi.us> <003c01c6b13b$6c38dad0$3c01a8c0@coolf89ea26645> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:30:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:51:56 +0000 Cc: Greg Barniskis , Nick Withers , danial_thom@yahoo.com, jerrymc@clunix.cl.msu.edu, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:30:25 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolas Britton" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: "Greg Barniskis" ; ; ; ; "Nick Withers" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > On 7/27/06, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Greg Barniskis" > > To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" > > Cc: ; ; > > ; "Nick Withers" > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:59 AM > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Danial Thom" > > > > To: "Greg Barniskis" ; "Nick Withers" > > > > > > > > Cc: ; ; > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:10 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > > > > > > > >> Burying your head in the sand is a common method > > > >> used by stupid people that have no answer to the > > > >> truth. I don't blame you; you guys don't want > > > >> your employers to know that you've wasted man > > > >> 1000s of their dollars because you don't know the > > > >> performance characteristics of the hardware > > > >> you've recommended. It must be thoroughly > > > >> embarrassing. > > > [snip] > > > > > > > I do agree with Danial that most USERS on this list are > > > > burying their heads in the sand on this issue. But I will > > > > point out that there isn't really any reason they shouldn't > > > > be. What the market wants is features, not speed. And > > > > that is what the FreeBSD developers are working on. > > > > > > Features over speed is generally the right equation, yes. > > > > > > But I think you're being too generous to Danial. The quote of his > > > above was in direct response to my assertion that many people refuse > > > to listen to him because he frequently engages in cheap demagogy[1]. > > > > > > > He does, but he is also right on this performance point. The truth > > can always be wrapped more palatably, but I think one of the differences > > between a system administrator and a user is that a user can't deal with > > the truth unless it's spoon fed in the nursery, an administrator should > > be approaching it as a professional, which means ignoring the > > irrelevant cheap demagogery and ignoring their own preconceptions of > > how things are "supposed" to work, and paying attention to the kernels of > > truth. > > > > I have to sort through giant piles of horseshit every time I look at the > > latest Cisco sales and marketing dreck, to find out what might be > > important in one of their new products, this isn't any different. And > > frankly I find the saccherine cloying marketingspeak to be far more > > disgusting and offensive then the lame kindergarden flames that > > Danial has so far been able to come up with. > > > > > His response? Another whole boatload of cheap demagogy, questioning > > > the intelligence, aptitude and moral character of anyone who doesn't > > > listen to him, by way of accusations that are wholly unsupported by > > > facts. I could probably rest my case right there, but I think his > > > perception (and yours) that people are not receptive to claims of > > > FreeBSD performance problems is quite simply false. > > > > > > Every time a performance question is brought up, I see a flurry of > > > calls for clarification and for the formulation of repeatable tests > > > which are generally agreed to be an accurate gauge of the problem. > > > > Calling for testing is pretty much a way of excusing the claim. People > > including Danial, have done the testing in the past, posted the results, > > then had armchair quarterbacks pick apart the test methodology claiming > > the tests were done wrong, thus irrelevant. So why even bother doing > > it anymore. > > > > But, you asked for it, you got it: > > > > Machine #1: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 6.1 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > > > freebsd-cvs# dmesg > > Copyright (c) 1992-2006 The FreeBSD Project. > > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > > FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 1 17:23:18 PDT 2006 > > tedm@freebsd-cvs.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/GENERICNOUSBNOFIRE > > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > > CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (548.54-MHz 686-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x673 Stepping = 3 > > > > Features=0x383fbff > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,SSE> > > real memory = 671088640 (640 MB) > > avail memory = 647458816 (617 MB) > > MPTable: > > ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8 > > ioapic0: Assuming intbase of 0 > > ioapic0 irqs 0-34 on motherboard > > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > > cpu0 on motherboard > > pcib0: pcibus 0 on motherboard > > pci0: on pcib0 > > pci0: at device 11.0 (no driver attached) > > pcib1: at device 13.0 on pci0 > > pci1: on pcib1 > > tl0: port 0x3800-0x380f irq 30 at > > device 7.0 on pci1 > > miibus0: on tl0 > > nsphy0: on miibus0 > > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > tlphy0: on miibus0 > > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:50:8b:f1:82:17 > > sym0: <875> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > > 0xc6ffdf00-0xc6ffdfff,0xc6fff000-0xc6ffffff irq 23 at device 9.0 on pci1 > > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > sym1: <875> port 0x3400-0x34ff mem > > 0xc6ffde00-0xc6ffdeff,0xc6ffe000-0xc6ffefff irq 22 at device 9.1 on pci1 > > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym1: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > pci0: at device 14.0 (no driver attached) > > ida0: port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > > 0xc6efe000-0xc6efefff irq 20 at device 16.0 on pci0 > > ida0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=1.22 > > idad0: on ida0 > > idad0: 34719MB (71106240 sectors), blocksize=512 > > pci0: at device 18.0 (no driver attached) > > isab0: at device 20.0 on pci0 > > isa0: on isab0 > > atapci0: port > > 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on pci0 > > ata0: on atapci0 > > ata1: on atapci0 > > pci0: at device 20.2 (no driver attached) > > pci0: at device 20.3 (no driver attached) > > eisa0: on motherboard > > mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 > > pmtimer0 on isa0 > > orm0: at iomem > > 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 > > atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 > > atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 > > kbd0 at atkbd0 > > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 > > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > > fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on > > isa0 > > fdc0: [FAST] > > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > > ppc0: at port 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa0 > > ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode > > ppbus0: on ppc0 > > plip0: on ppbus0 > > lpt0: on ppbus0 > > lpt0: Interrupt-driven port > > ppi0: on ppbus0 > > sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 > > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > > sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 > > sio0: type 16550A > > sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 > > sio1: type 16550A > > vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 > > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 548543576 Hz quality 800 > > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > > Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > > acd0: CDROM at ata0-master PIO4 > > sa0 at sym1 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 > > sa0: Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device > > sa0: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 7, 16bit) > > Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a > > ipfw2 (+ipv6) initialized, divert loadable, rule-based forwarding disabled, > > default to deny, logging disabled > > tl0: link state changed to UP > > freebsd-cvs# > > freebsd-cvs# pwd > > /root > > freebsd-cvs# bonnie > > File './Bonnie.81888', size: 104857600 > > Writing with putc()...done > > Rewriting...done > > Writing intelligently...done > > Reading with getc()...done > > Reading intelligently...done > > Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential > > Input-- --Random-- > > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per > > Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > > Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec > > %CPU > > 100 7745 39.4 7748 12.0 8808 15.3 23303 98.3 151922 99.1 > > 12579.6 99.1 > > freebsd-cvs# > > > > Machine #2: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 4.11 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > > > billmax# dmesg > > Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project. > > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > > FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE #0: Mon Nov 14 11:25:24 PST 2005 > > tedm@billmax.ipinc.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/BILLMAX > > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > > CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (448.95-MHz 686-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 > > > > Features=0x183fbff > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR> > > real memory = 536870912 (524288K bytes) > > avail memory = 518692864 (506536K bytes) > > Changing APIC ID for IO APIC #0 from 0 to 8 on chip > > Programming 35 pins in IOAPIC #0 > > IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 -> irq 0 > > FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard: 2 CPUs > > cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > > cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > > io0 (APIC): apic id: 8, version: 0x00220011, at 0xfec00000 > > Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc039c000. > > Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled > > md0: Malloc disk > > npx0: on motherboard > > npx0: INT 16 interface > > pcib0: on motherboard > > pci0: on pcib0 > > pci0: at 11.0 > > pcib1: at device 13.0 on pci0 > > pci1: on pcib1 > > tl0: port 0x2800-0x280f mem > > 0xc6ef9df0-0xc6ef9dff irq 9 at device 7.0 on pci1 > > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:08:c7:9f:92:77 > > miibus0: on tl0 > > nsphy0: on miibus0 > > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > tlphy0: on miibus0 > > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > > sym0: <875> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > > 0xc6efb000-0xc6efbfff,0xc6ef9f00-0xc6ef9fff irq 10 at device 9.0 on pci1 > > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym1: <875> port 0x2400-0x24ff mem > > 0xc6efa000-0xc6efafff,0xc6ef9e00-0xc6ef9eff irq 11 at device 9.1 on pci1 > > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > pci1: at 13.0 irq 5 > > pci0: (vendor=0x0e11, dev=0xa0f0) at 14.0 > > pcib2: at device 18.0 on pci0 > > pci2: on pcib2 > > ida0: port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > > 0xb8000000-0xbfffffff,0xc6ffff00-0xc6ffffff irq 15 at device 0.0 on pci2 > > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=4.44 > > idad0: on ida0 > > idad0: 26029MB (53309280 sectors), blocksize=512 > > isab0: at device 20.0 on pci0 > > isa0: on isab0 > > atapci0: port 0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on > > pci0 > > ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 > > ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 > > uhci0: irq 0 at device 20.2 on > > pci0 > > uhci0: Could not map ports > > device_probe_and_attach: uhci0 attach returned 6 > > piix0: at device 20.3 on pci0 > > eisa0: on motherboard > > mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 > > orm0: