Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:20:12 -0600 From: "Delmir Fernandes" <delmir@enteract.com> To: <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, <drew@multinet-media.com>, <notme@lvdi.net>, <bsd@inbox.org> Subject: /*** Open Source - FreeBSD - Arguments ***/ Message-ID: <005101bf5827$42f14460$0200a8c0@enteract.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] This is a reply to all of those that tried to answer mine earlier questions or arguments. But first I would like to know were and how you got the message to begin with! This also happens to be mine first time to disclose mine ideas about open source software. I notice that many of you misunderstood mine point by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to make myself clear by using different parts of different replies that was received and forgive mine foreign and broken English. All previous messages (others & mine) are quoted with ">" and ">>" respectively. So, here we go: /*** By: Mr. K. - bsd@inbox.org ***/ >> I am a new Linux user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD >> is better and faster plus many large and well-known companies use >> FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does not >> exist enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so >> much poor? > > Personally I consider Linux better for home desktop use, and FreeBSD > better for server use. The drivers come out much faster for Linux, > with much more support. This would explain why linux is more popular > (there are more home users than server farmers). I also consider Windows > better than Linux and FreeBSD for home desktop use (donning my flame > retardant suit). When I'm at home, I like to watch DVDs. I don't > want to dual boot, and I don't want to wait around a year for someone > to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor. Driver support is better for > Windows than for FreeBSD and Linux combined. That would explain why > Windows is way more popular than both of them, and will continue to be. > > Is FreeBSD better? Yes, for some things. Is Windows? Yes, for other > things. Is Linux? Well, maybe, but not for anything I want to do :). The main intention of the questions was to compare and point out that despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold the same prestige and fame that others operating systems do. When Mr. K says that he likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for someone to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor, that goes against all the reason behind the "Open Source Movement". One should not need to back engineer nothing. Operating systems are to computers the same thing that spoken languages are to us human. Have you ever seen someone paying just to speak a language? Does it sound absurd? It sure does! But when it comes to computers, some how we loose the whole sense about it. We do not only believe it is right to pay to use an operating system, but yet, we accept others to control it and hide its internal functions. Another strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you bought a car the hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by law to be done only by authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest what? Again, some how we loose the whole sense about it when it comes to computer. And again, we not only allow corporations to own and control our OSs (which is enforced by law), but we also let them to trap and ambush us to use their operating systems which is somewhat described here: /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > ..., actually Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous > marketing strategy that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact > that the apps run on an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the > only factor then several other companies would have won the OS > war long ago. Most will argue that BSD isn't in competition with > MS...there's no comparison. Part of living in a capitalistic world is > having options... > and as far as communism goes, <see Microsoft Marketing>. > wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD mailing lists. Very good Drew! You are totally right about Microsoft's over-zealous marketing strategy. That is the reason Microsoft is being sued because of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of capitalism and communism totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic Microsoft. What I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be more popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. Got it? /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > I don't think FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's > strong enough to hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go > running around chasing target markets. I don't know how else to > explain this... > superior os+cheap=best deal in town > take it or leave it. Well, I believe part of that is wrong and part is wishful thinking. Huhm... You don't think FreeBSD is being left behind!? While jokes about Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are no longer jokes and while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... huhm. About the: "superior os+cheap=best deal in town" - that would be excellent, but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial can it be? Going back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our real world today is: (Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) = (A common OS and a lot of resources to the OS holder) ...Resources that if were obtained and use towards FreeBSD would make it better... that was one of the suggestions on mine first message!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >>FreeBSD is better and faster plus many large and well-known >>companies use FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much >>more popular? Why does not exist enough (if any) documentation >>on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so much poor? > > All of this has been said before ( many times ). And in your >`documentation' question lies a summary that will answer most >of your questions. > >1) What documentation are you referring to? > - linux and windows users generally refer to things in a more > general sense > - users of BSD and other OS`s would have asked for > documentation on installing the OS or another topic regarding > the OS. > *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help > ( because that's not really OS specific ) and there's plenty of > documentation for that. > *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or Linux...what > would you say?...where would you start? > > 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever documentation > you were looking for? > > - linux and windows users generally expect things to be given > to them without any effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right ) > - in the world of BSD, a user learns real fast the best route to > discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of trial > and error ) > > *** browse the site, search the archives, read the man pages, > post a `specific' question regarding the OS to questions. > > <note the similarities between linux and windows users>....the linux > success comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS. Documentation.... Any and every! Here we go again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need more resources, and to get more resources you need to target masses (everyone). Where did you get the idea that just because FreeBSD is an excellent server and for sure not an OS for dumb people (As in MS OSs), everyone should have the knowledge, time and patience to learn the specifics about the OS? MS documentation is amazingly NOT what I am talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers on their on products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect documentation should be simple and strait enough for a naïve user and complete enough an expert. Example: Where is the documentation to install a NIC? Oh... I see... It is a work in progress! It should be done already if FreeBSD had more resources... and don't make me go over how to get more resources, again!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >> From mine point of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because >> it's creators want so! > > You're right...but I think most BSD users will tell you they want it > that way, too. Are being sarcastic? You've got to be. /*** By: Frankie Li - drew@multinet-media.com ***/ > ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not > do FreeBSD any good. I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD is > a "professional only system." Two years ago, I was a normal Window 95 > ... Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all wrong. I never had the intention to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to improve FreeBSD and I am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive me! Please reply. Please reply. Please reply. Sincerely, Delmir Fernandes delmir@hotmail.com CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org drew@multinet-media.com notme@lvdi.net bsd@inbox.org [-- Attachment #2 --] <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is a reply to all of those that tried to answer mine earlier questions or arguments.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But first I would like to know were and how you got the message to begin with!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This also happens to be mine first time to disclose mine ideas about open source software. I notice that many of you misunderstood mine point by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to make myself clear by using different parts of different replies that was received and forgive mine foreign and broken English.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All previous messages (others & mine) are quoted with ">" and ">>" respectively. So, here we go:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>/*** By: Mr. K. - <A href="mailto:bsd@inbox.org">bsd@inbox.org</A> ***/ <BR>>> I am a new Linux user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD<BR>>> is better and faster plus many large and well-known companies use<BR>>> FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does not<BR>>> exist enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so<BR>>> much poor? <BR>><BR>> Personally I consider Linux better for home desktop use, and FreeBSD<BR>> better for server use. The drivers come out much faster for Linux,<BR>> with much more support. This would explain why linux is more popular<BR>> (there are more home users than server farmers). I also consider Windows<BR>> better than Linux and FreeBSD for home desktop use (donning my flame<BR>> retardant suit). When I'm at home, I like to watch DVDs. I don't<BR>> want to dual boot, and I don't want to wait around a year for someone<BR>> to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor. Driver support is better for<BR>> Windows than for FreeBSD and Linux combined. That would explain why<BR>> Windows is way more popular than both of them, and will continue to be.<BR>><BR>> Is FreeBSD better? Yes, for some things. Is Windows? Yes, for other<BR>> things. Is Linux? Well, maybe, but not for anything I want to do :).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The main intention of the questions was to compare and point out that despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold the same prestige and fame that others operating systems do. <BR>When Mr. K says that he likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for someone to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor, that goes against all the reason behind the “Open Source Movement”. One should not need to back engineer nothing.<BR>Operating systems are to computers the same thing that spoken languages are to us human. Have you ever seen someone paying just to speak a language? Does it sound absurd? It sure does! But when it comes to computers, some how we loose the whole sense about it. We do not only believe it is right to pay to use an operating system, but yet, we accept others to control it and hide its internal functions.<BR>Another strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you bought a car the hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by law to be done only by authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest what? Again, some how we loose the whole sense about it when it comes to computer. And again, we not only allow corporations to own and control our OSs (which is enforced by law), but we also let them to trap and ambush us to use their operating systems which is somewhat described here:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A href="mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>> ..., actually Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous <BR>> marketing strategy that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact <BR>> that the apps run on an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the <BR>> only factor then several other companies would have won the OS <BR>> war long ago. Most will argue that BSD isn't in competition with <BR>> MS...there's no comparison. Part of living in a capitalistic world is <BR>> having options... <BR>> and as far as communism goes, <see Microsoft Marketing>. <BR>> wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD mailing lists.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Very good Drew! You are totally right about Microsoft’s over-zealous marketing strategy. That is the reason Microsoft is being sued because of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of capitalism and communism totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic Microsoft. What I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be more popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. Got it?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A href="mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>> I don't think FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's <BR>> strong enough to hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go <BR>> running around chasing target markets. I don't know how else to <BR>> explain this... <BR>> superior os+cheap=best deal in town <BR>> take it or leave it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, I believe part of that is wrong and part is wishful thinking.<BR>Huhm... You don’t think FreeBSD is being left behind!? While jokes about Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are no longer jokes and while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... huhm. <BR>About the: "superior os+cheap=best deal in town" - that would be excellent, but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial can it be?<BR>Going back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our real world today is:<BR>(Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) = (A common OS and a lot of resources to the OS holder)<BR>...Resources that if were obtained and use towards FreeBSD would make it better... that was one of the suggestions on mine first message!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A href="mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>>>FreeBSD is better and faster plus many large and well-known<BR>>>companies use FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much<BR>>>more popular? Why does not exist enough (if any) documentation<BR>>>on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so much poor?<BR>><BR>> All of this has been said before ( many times ). And in your <BR>>`documentation' question lies a summary that will answer most <BR>>of your questions. <BR>><BR>>1) What documentation are you referring to? <BR>> - linux and windows users generally refer to things in a more <BR>> general sense <BR>> - users of BSD and other OS`s would have asked for <BR>> documentation on installing the OS or another topic regarding <BR>> the OS. <BR>> *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help <BR>> ( because that's not really OS specific ) and there's plenty of <BR>> documentation for that. <BR>> *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or Linux...what <BR>> would you say?...where would you start? <BR>><BR>> 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever documentation <BR>> you were looking for? <BR>><BR>> - linux and windows users generally expect things to be given <BR>> to them without any effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right ) <BR>> - in the world of BSD, a user learns real fast the best route to <BR>> discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of trial <BR>> and error ) <BR>><BR>> *** browse the site, search the archives, read the man pages, <BR>> post a `specific' question regarding the OS to questions. <BR>><BR>> <note the similarities between linux and windows users>....the linux <BR>> success comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Documentation.... Any and every!<BR>Here we go again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need more resources, and to get more resources you need to target masses (everyone). Where did you get the idea that just because FreeBSD is an excellent server and for sure not an OS for dumb people (As in MS OSs), everyone should have the knowledge, time and patience to learn the specifics about the OS? MS documentation is amazingly NOT what I am talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers on their on products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect documentation should be simple and strait enough for a naïve user and complete enough an expert. Example: Where is the documentation to install a NIC? Oh... I see... It is a work in progress! It should be done already if FreeBSD had more resources... and don’t make me go over how to get more resources, again!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR> /*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A href="mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>>> From mine point of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because<BR>>> it's creators want so!<BR>><BR>> You're right...but I think most BSD users will tell you they want it <BR>> that way, too. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are being sarcastic? You’ve got to be.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>/*** By: Frankie Li – <A href="mailto:drew@multinet-media.com">drew@multinet-media.com</A> ***/<BR>> ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not<BR>> do FreeBSD any good. I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD is<BR>> a "professional only system." Two years ago, I was a normal Window 95<BR>> ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all wrong. I never had the intention to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to improve FreeBSD and I am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive me!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please reply.<BR>Please reply.<BR>Please reply.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Delmir Fernandes<BR><A href="mailto:delmir@hotmail.com">delmir@hotmail.com</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>CC:<BR><A href="mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org">freebsd-questions@freebsd.org</A><BR><A href="mailto:rdrew@multinet-media.com">drew@multinet-media.com</A><BR><A href="mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A><BR><A href="mailto:bsd@inbox.org">bsd@inbox.org</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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